Transcript

ANNOUNCER: In Mark’s Gospel, Chapter 8, it talks about saving your life by losing it. Jesus is clearly talking about some pretty heavy works, so could this possibly be about salvation or is it not obviously about something else? Let’s talk about it today here on Grace and Focus. Thank you, friend, for joining us. This is the broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. You can find out more about us at our website, and we also have some videos for you to view at our YouTube channel, YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. We’ve released new videos each week, similar in content to this broadcast, and you can find them at YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. Once again, our website, faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates. 

KEN: And we’re talking about what’s called tough texts. These are part of the course that we offer on a course called Tough Texts. From the seminary, so if anyone’s interested in talking more about these things and other tough texts, then check it out.

This one that we’re going to talk about is, well, all of them are pretty famous or well-known passages. And so is this one. We’ve all heard the phrase, take up your cross and follow the Lord. 

BOB: Deny yourself, take up your cross, follow Me. 

KEN: Right. And it’s in the synoptic gospels, and the one we’re going to discuss is in Mark 8. 

BOB: And it also has, if you save your life, you lose it. If you lose your life for My sake, you’ll gain it. What will a man give in exchange for his soul? 

KEN: Right. I mean, this passage of Scripture that the Lord teaches here is just full of evangelical jargon. You know, soul, saving the soul, lost. And what does he mean? And with a lot of these tough texts, people think, well, he’s talking about how to go to heaven. 

BOB: I’ve heard many music groups, and I’ve heard pastors. Music groups use this to lead into their evangelistic point. And they will say, you need to deny yourself. You need to take up your cross, and you need to follow Christ in order to be saved. I’ve heard pastors use this passage. Say the same thing—deny yourself, take up your cross, follow Christ. 

They don’t try to harmonize it with the gospel of John or with, you know, whoever believes in Him. Will not perish, but has everlasting life. Instead, they say something that contradicts John 3:16. 

KEN: I mean, it’s such a disconnect. You know, they’ll say like you just said, well, salvation is by grace. It’s absolutely free. But you got to take up your cross and deny yourself and lose your life. It’s almost like they’re blind to what they’re saying. They don’t see the contradiction. 

BOB: Remember the story by Hans Christian Andersen, the emperor has no clothes. The emperor gets duped by these two guys who tell him they can weave clothes out of invisible thread. And the clothes will be beautiful clothes, but they’re invisible. Yeah. So the guy parades around, we’ll say in boxer shorts. And so he parades around in boxer shorts. And everybody is oohing and aahing because all of his entourage is saying, we’re whipping up the crowd. Come on, he’s coming. Ooh and Ah over his beautiful new clothes. And then some 10 year old boy says, the emperor has no clothes. 

To me, that’s what happens in exegesis or in interpretation. A lot of people are saying things that make no sense, but there aren’t too many people that are saying “what they’re saying makes no sense”. 

KEN: And so anybody, I mean, even if you don’t listen to this podcast, you know, the rest of it, just read Mark 8:34 through 38, just read it and try to, you know, lay aside any evangelical jargon you’ve heard and say, is he talking about something that’s by grace.

BOB: He’s not talking about a free gift. He’s not talking about by faith alone. He’s not talking about apart from works. He’s talking clearly about works. 

KEN: Now, these are, these are heavy duty work. 

BOB: Denying yourself, taking up your cross and following Christ, that’s works. 

KEN: And losing your life.

BOB: Losing your life is works. You know, what people end up saying is, well, it’s kind of antinomy. It’s kind of something that appears to be contradictory, but it’s really not. No, this really is contradictory. 

KEN: And by the way, we’ve all found ourselves in a situation where we look at something and say, I don’t know what it means. 

BOB: See, that would be fine if we do that. 

KEN: Sure, especially if you’re a new believer and you’ve never heard this before, you come to this passage and you go, I don’t know what that means, but I know,—and we talked about this at the introduction to the series—well, I know it’s not saying I’ve got to do all these things to make it into heaven, but I don’t know what the Lord means. 

BOB: Right. So when I said that was contradictory, I don’t mean the Scriptures are contradictory. What I mean is that interpretation is contradictory. Obviously, this passage is talking about something different than what Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about or what John 3:16 is talking about. This is a discipleship passage. This isn’t an evangelistic passage. 

KEN: Right. If you’re a believer who’s never been taught rewards—and by the way, there’s a lot of people in our churches who never heard of rewards. A lot of people. I know in my case, I still remember the first time I heard of rewards. I was 22. And I’d been a believer for 10 years and I never heard it before. And so yeah, if you come to a passage like this and you don’t even know that’s an option, it’s very likely you’re not going to know what the Lord is talking about because the Lord is talking about discipleship that leads to rewards in His kingdom. 

Let’s look at this passage. It’s short enough so that we can read it. It’s Mark chapter 8 starting in verse 34, “And when He had called the people to Himself with His disciples also, He said to them”. So he’s talking to the disciples there and the people and obviously among the people, there would have been other believers, you know, not just the disciples who are believers, you know, the original twelve. And he says, “Whoever desires to come after Me.” 

BOB: There you go. 

KEN: Right there. I mean, the first words He says is a ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, right? 

BOB: It’s not whoever desires to come to Me. 

KEN: Or believe in Me. 

BOb: Right. But in John’s gospel to come to Jesus is to believe in Him like John 6:35. But in the synoptics to come after Jesus is to follow Him in discipleship.

KEN: Which even in English, I’m walking after that person. I’m following after that. 

KEN: That’s my mentor. That’s my teacher. That’s my rabbi. 

KEN: Right. We would say maybe walking in his footsteps or something like that. 

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KEN: “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself.” Okay, deny himself what? What does he mean by this? 

BOB: Well, Peter had just said, no, no, you’re not going to the cross. We’re not going to die. We’re not going to suffer. John Walvoord in his commentary on Matthew says, which in the same passage in Matthew 16:24-28, he says what the Lord is teaching here is that suffering precedes glory. And he doesn’t make it crystal clear, but the point is suffering precedes sharing in Christ’s glory for those who are the overcomers. 

KEN: Okay. And then he says, not only deny yourself, but take up your cross. 

BOB: And follow me because Jesus is taking up His own cross. And He just said He was going to die. So He’s telling the disciples, you guys are going to die too. 

KEN: And the thing about follow, that’s a process. Eternal life is something we receive at a moment in time. 

BOB: But not this. 

KEN: That’s right. This is something—

BOB: This is ongoing. And Luke says, take up your cross daily. 

KEN: Right. And by the way, Bob, you know this, but there’s actually people who will say that eternal life is absolutely free. You get it at the moment you believe. And that’s what he’s talking about here. But it’s like, well, wait a second, there’s a process. That’s a contradiction. 

BOB: No, exactly. And for the sake of time, I don’t think we’ll have time to read everything. But let me suggest, I mean, I guess we can read it, but just a quick comment. The word life occurs twice in verse 35. And the word soul appears once in verse 36, and once in verse 37, you see that? All four are the same Greek word. 

KEN: Same Greek word. 

BOB: Psyche. And they should all be translated the same way. Either translate all four of them soul or all four of them life. I would say translate all four of them life. 

KEN: Well, verse 35 is very clear that He’s talking about life. 

BOB: So go ahead and read that one, I guess. 

KEN: Yeah. “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it and whoever loses his life from My sake and the gospel’s will save it.” And by the way, I don’t think there’s anybody who doubts that it should be life there. Nobody doubts that you can need to give up your life for me. And obviously, that’s not something that’s free. And Bob’s absolutely right. Therefore, the next two verses, the word ought to be translated life as well. It should say, for what will it profit a man, this is verse 36, if he gains a whole world and loses his own life or verse 37, or what will a man give an exchange for his life? 

And even if you just make that simple change there, which anybody can look up in Greek, it’s the same word. You don’t have to know Greek to see it. You can look at those words and say, yeah, those are the same words. And Jesus is talking about how the believer can save his life. 

BOB: Right. And we might think he’s talking primarily about saving it in the here and now, in terms of fullness of life here and now. But in light of the last verse, verse 38, he’s talking primarily about the life to come, having a fuller, more abundant experience forever. How about verse 38? 

KEN: Yeah, verse 38, “For whoever’s ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation”, by the way, He’s talking to believers and disciples, you can be ashamed of Him, “of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” 

BOB: Yes. Notice this glory that He’s coming with and He’s either going to have praise for the believer or shame toward that believer, right? 

KEN: That’s right. We know that a believer can be ashamed at the coming of the Lord. 

BOB: 1 John 2:28. 

KEN: John says, “Let us abide in Him so that when He appears, we may not be ashamed at his coming”, right? 

BOB: And remember Paul said, “I am not ashamed of the gospel”? Well, why does he say that? It’s litotes or understatement. He says, I’m very proud of this message. But if he were ashamed of it, which is a possibility, well, then the Lord would be ashamed of him at the Judgment Seat of Christ. 

KEN: Yeah. And so what the Lord is saying to the disciples here is, come after Me, come after Me, boldly follow Me. 

BOB: Even though it’s going to involve suffering?

KEN: And it’s going to involve suffering, right? I mean, He’s on the way to Jerusalem. And so if you’re going to follow Him, he’s telling the disciples, what do you think you’re going to run into? Even though we’re not in the first century and we’re not literally headed to Jerusalem to take up a cross, anybody today who is a believer, who remains faithful to the Lord is going to experience suffering and opposition from the world.

BOB: Absolutely. And some of that is simply suffering because of the wickedness we see in our world, like Lot, 2 Peter 2, we’re told that Lot was tormented. 

KEN: His soul was tormented—

BOB: Right, by the wickedness he saw. Well, if we’re tormented by the wickedness in our world, that’s part of suffering for the Lord. But on top of that, if we just stand up for the truth, people are going to criticize us. 

KEN: Right. You know, we live in a world that is opposed in every way to the message of eternal life, to the morality that Christ taught and everything. So if you’re walking in that path, you’re going to experience opposition. 

BOB: Well, this is a great passage. I really like what you did and you have a commentary on Mark, so you discuss this in your commentary. 

KEN: We discuss it in the commentary and we also again in class, we’ll discuss this passage. 

BOB: Sounds good. And if you don’t have Ken’s commentary, check it out at faithalone.org. 

KEN: Well, great Bob, appreciate it. And until next time, keep grace in focus. 

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Now, on our next episode: who are the overcomers of Revelation 2 and 3? Come back and join us and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.