Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Grace in Focus. We are continuing our eschatology series. Today we will look at Revelation 11 and the two witnesses. Who are these two witnesses? What is their message? What role do they play? And who is their audience? Friend, we’re glad you’re with us today. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website, faithalone.org. We are just about to wrap up 2025, but in 2026 we want you to come and experience our national annual conference. It will be held in Denton, Texas at Camp Copass. We always have a wonderful time, great accommodations at this camp, and the fellowship and teaching are out of this world. Get more information, sign up, and come join us, faithalong.org. 

Now with today’s discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Philippe Sterling. 

BOB: Philippe, we’ve been going through, we called it Sterling Bob, because that helps us remember the judgments. There’s the s in Sterling. 

PHILIPPE: For the series of the seal judgments.
BOB: The seal judgments. And then you have the T in Sterling was for the—

PHILIPPE: Trumpet judgments. 

BOB: And then you get the Bob, which is the—

PHILIPPE: The Bowls. 

BOB: The Bowl judgments. So it’s important for us as we go into the bowl judgments to recognize this falls within a context in the book of Revelation. And we haven’t yet discussed two key figures during the Tribulation, which kind of set the stage, don’t they, for the bowl judgments? 

PHILIPPE: Yes, chapter 11 of the book of Revelation tells us about the measuring of the temple by an angel, and then tells us about the two witnesses that come. And their ministry probably occurs throughout the course of the first three and a half years, but they conclude with the last of the trumpet judgments of this six and seventh trumpet.

BOB: Okay. Now there, I have some odd theories. So Philippe, I’ll tell you some of my odd theories and you tell me what you think. But for one thing, it seems to me that somehow, unless these people are, let’s say Enoch and Elijah, who never died. So it’s possible they’re Enoch and Elijah. Unless they are, then these two witnesses were Jews who were alive on earth and were unbelievers at the beginning of the, well, at least after the Rapture. They could come to faith between the Rapture and the signing of the covenant. And if that’s the case, I think the Lord Jesus evangelized them. And that’s how they came to faith. LikeJesus appearing to Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus. But the other option, which I think is a very live option, is there’s only been two people who’ve never died. And this could easily be those two, couldn’t it? 

PHILIPPE: Yes. It was in the antediluvian period before the flood. We’re told of Enoch, Enoch lived 65 years. And then he walked with the Lord for 300 years. “And he was not, for the Lord took him.” So he never experienced a physical death. 

BOB: Right. Same thing with Elijah when Elisha’s with him and he’s taken up in a whirlwind. And there’s also this chariot of God that’s going up with him. And he never died. And Elijah did all kinds of miracles like the miracles—

PHILIPPE: Yeah, he called down fire at certain times. 

BOB: And isn’t that going to happen with the two witnesses? 

PHILIPPE: Yes, they are given the authority and the ability to call plagues and judgments on the different nations of the world. And if anyone tries to come and do away away with them, they’re able to spew fire out of their mouths and consume whatever delegation of soldiers or whatever it was sent to do them, in much as had happened with,

BOB: Now, here’s another question. Do you think these two witnesses evangelize the Jews who become the 144,000? 

PHILIPPE: I think so. If the temple is rebuilt in the beginning, I think, of the first two and a half years when the covenant is made with Israel and thesetwo witnesses, I think, is when they show up and are given two and a half years of ministry. And they may be very well, especially if they are Enoch and Elijah, their ministry initially is to the Jewish people and they train them, they disciple them, and then the 144,000 are sealed and go out throughout the world to the nations of the world and evangelize a great number. 

BOB: Exactly. It may be one of the greatest revivals, if not the greatest revival, in the history of mankind. 

PHILIPPE: Yeah, we’re told in that scene that from every tribe and nation, there are those who are represented there. And the natural connection is that it’s the result of the 144,000. 

BOB: So say the two witnesses, they lead a certain number of Jewish young men to faith in Christ. They don’t have to lead the whole 144,000. If they led a few hundred or a few dozen, they in turn lead others. And as a result, we end up with 12,000 from each tribe. Now that’s not to say that’s all the believing Jews in Israel. There’s a lot more than that. But these are all males and they’re all virgins and they’re all very godly young men. And so there’s others in Israel that come to faith and certainly they’re sharing their faith with the other Jews in Israel. And the fleeing that takes place, the Lord told in the Olivet Discourse, he told people to flee at the midpoint of the Tribulation, right? 

PHILIPPE: Yes, but when the abomination of desolation, when the temple is desecrated and the image of the beast is set up.

BOB: But they don’t flee before that, right? 

PHILIPPE: No, there’s a vast population of Jews in Jerusalem at the time. 

BOB: So we can expect that a large number of Jewish people became believers during the first three and a half years of the Tribulation. 

PHILIPPE: Yes. 

ANNOUNCER: Did you know that the Grace Evangelical Society offers an MDiv degree through our online seminary and tuition is free to those who maintain a 3.0 grade average? It is a three-year degree program and you could submit your application now to gain acceptance. Then stay apprised of our registration periods for upcoming semester terms. Program and application details can be found at GESSeminary.org. Have a look at our MDiv degree. Become an approved workman. Find out how GESSeminary.org.

PHILIPPE: There’s a vast population of Jews in Jerusalem at the time. 

BOB: So we can expect that a large number of Jewish people became believers during the first three and a half years of the Tribulation. 

PHILIPPE: Yes. 

BOB: And of course we know by the end that the only Jews that survive the Tribulation as adults will be believing, so that 100% of the surviving Jewish adults will be believers. But these two witnesses are going to be doing lots of miracles. And is it not also possible that these 144,000 evangelists will have the gift of tongues? Do you think they might? 

PHILIPPE: Again, people from every tribe and nation will be represented in the heavenly scene right as a result of, I think, their ministry. So if it’s every tribe, every nation, how many languages are there now? I’d say estimated like seven thousand, seven hundred or something like that. Dialects. Yes. 

BOB: So as a result, there really probably isn’t time for them to go out and learn all the languages. I guess my point is this. I believe and I know you do as well in what’s called cessationism. And that’s the view that the sign gifts ceased at the end of the apostolic age. So when the apostles died, so did the sign gifts. So no longer do we have the gift of healing. God heals, but not through faith healers. We no longer have the gift of tongues, that what we see today with people who claim to speak in tongues is just ecstatic utterances, and we don’t have the gift of miracles, nobody’s being raised from the dead, that kind of thing. But during the first half of the Tribulation, the first three and a half of the seven years, there will be at the very least major miracles done by the two witnesses. There’ll be signs. 

PHILIPPE: And then perhaps like you said, by the 144,000. Now we know throughout the course of history that have been, prior to the Tribulation, three distinct periods where there were miraculous typse of occurrences occurring. 

BOB: When you say we, that’s not necessarily all of us. You may or may not be familiar with this, but this is a common teaching in dispensationalism, right? 

PHILIPPE: Yes. 

BOB: So what are those three eras? 

PHILIPPE: The first era will have been where Moses and Joshua, who were able to do— 

BOB: So Moses and Aaron did all kinds of signs before Pharaoh. And of course the parting of the Red Sea, the manna in the wilderness and all of that. And then with Joshua, the falling of the walls of Jericho.

PHILIPPE: And the sun stands still. 

BOB: Yeah, the longest day. And you’ve got lots of miracles in Moses and his successor, Joshua. And then what’s another great age? 

PHILIPPE: The great age was with Elijah and Elisha. 

BOB: Okay, so Elijah and Elisha were two of the great prophets. 

PHILIPPE: They were prophets to the northern kingdom, but were given great signs to do with the hope that it will help bring the northern kingdom to repentance, but they fail to do so. 

BOB: And what’s the third great time then when there were miraculous sign gifts? 

PHILIPPE: Those will be with Jesus and the apostles. 

BOB: Okay, so you’ve got Jesus and the apostles. And of course, during the ministry of Jesus, you saw lots of casting out of demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. And during the ministry of the apostles, also casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead, so much so that when the shadow of Paul or Peter would cross someone, they’d get healed at times. So you had those three great times, but there’s a fourth one coming. 

PHILIPPE: And this will be during the Tribulation period, particularly with the two witnesses, at chapter 11 in Revelation.

BOB: All right, so very good. These two witnesses die at the middle of the seven years, right? 

PHILIPPE: Yes, their enemies are not able to do away with them, the beast, until their ministry is complete and they are killed then by the beast. 

BOB: And then there’s worldwide rejoicing. 

PHILIPPE: There’s a worldwide celebration, it’s Christmas for the earth dwellers

because they’d suffered at the hand of their judgments of the two witnesses. 

BOB: They’re all rejoicing, having parties for three and a half days. And what happens at the end of three and a half days? 

PHILIPPE: Then the two witnesses whose bodies were exposed to what those three and a half days stand up and ascend into heaven. 

BOB: They stand up and then they rise up. They’re basically raptured. They’ve died, but now they’re raised from the dead and they’re taken up. And so it’s interesting, it’s three and a half days, not three days. And maybe that’s because A, three and a half symbolizes there’s three and a half years ago. But also B, it’s not exactly identical to Jesus’ resurrection. You know, on the third day, but this is three and a half. But in any case, they’re all shocked when they rise from the dead. The people who were rejoicing are now bummed out. 

PHILIPPE: And of course, the people around the world all see it and now we know with technology it’s possible that everyone in the world knew and were seeing what was happening there in the streets of Jerusalem. 

BOB: Yeah, it’s on CNN worldwide or Al Jazeera, is that what it was called? All the major world networks are showing this and they come alive and rise. So these two witnesses are powerful figures during the first half of the Tribulation. 

PHILIPPE: Yes. And then with their demise, their resurrection and ascension it’s at that point that the seventh trumpet also will sound and I will introduce the seven bowls that will talk about next time. 

BOB: Very good. All right. Well, thank you, Philippe. Thank you all and remember, let’s keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: We invite you to check out our Monday, Wednesday, and Friday five minute YouTube videos at YouTube Grace Evangelical Society. You will love the content and learn a lot. There are a lot of costs involved in staying on the air. That’s why we so much appreciate our financial partners. If you’d like to learn how to become one, you can find out more by going to faithalone.org.

On our next episode, we will be talking about the seven bowl judgments and Revelation. Please join us and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.