Transcript

ANNOUNCER: One of the regulations in the New Testament Church by Paul for women speaking in church. Let’s have a discussion about that today. Glad you’re joining us here on Grace in Focus. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society and we come to you each weekday. We have a website, faithalone.org. One of the things on our website is our bookstore. We invite you to find Bob Wilkins’ latest book, The Gospel Is Still Under Siege, and many other points of information there, our regional conference information, our free online Seminary, and our free subscription magazine, Grace and Focus. Find it all at faithalone.org. 

Now with today’s question and answer discussion here are Bob Wilkins and Ken Yates. 

KEN: We have a question from Wes that comes up all the time in our Bible studies. 

BOB: Wes is a friend of ours and he asks the question in an interesting way, which I like. 

KEN: He’s talking about when are women able to speak when the church meets? 

BOB: Which is a controversial question. 

KEN: Exactly. There’s a number of issues about this. Like when does the church meet?BOB: Yeah, that’s the big question. 

KEN: Right. For example, Sunday school, or is it the Lord Supper or when is it? 

BOB: Yeah, it’s a conference that’s being held at a hotel. Is that the meeting of the church? If you’re having a Seminary class, is that the meeting of the local church? Or at Bible college class. Is that the meeting of the local church? 

KEN: Yeah, you and I, at Dallas, for example, this was an issue. Could women be ThM students or could women speak at chapel, be professors? 

BOB: Were you there when Elizabeth Elliott Ross spoke? 

KEN: No. 

BOB: I was there. I’m in chapel. There’s about 800 guys in the chapel. Back then, all ThM students were males. There were no female ThM students. And there were a handful of women in the MA program. So there were basically 800 guys in the auditorium. And Dr. Walvoord stood up and said, Elizabeth Elliott is the wife of Jim Elliott who died with the Auca Indians and she has since remarried. She’s now Elizabeth Elliott, I think Ross, at that point. And he said, she’s a missionary and the board of Dallas Seminary, and the faculty of Dallas Seminary has asked her to come and to speak. And so she’s speaking under our authority. And so come on, Elizabeth and come on and speak. 

She stood up to speak and half of the DTS students walked out. I was shocked. I was like, how disrespectful is this? Disrespectful of the woman. Disrespectful of Dr. Walvoord. Disrespectful of Dallas Seminary. 

And I was also thinking how stupid this is. Do these 400 men that get up and walk out think we’re in church? Do they think being in a chapel service at Dallas Seminary is church? Do they think women can never speak to men? Never. Is that what the Bible teaches? 

KEN: Surely they didn’t think that was the church or… 

BOB: Well, didn’t Aquila and Priscilla? Didn’t they take Apollo’s aside and teach him? Right. We were accurately the truths of Scripture. And it wasn’t just Aquila. It was also Priscilla. 

KEN: And I mean, you think about all the women who were with Christ in His ministry. After He died and rose from the dead and ascended, did none of those women ever talked a bit about what they saw? 

BOB: Didn’t the angels say go and tell the disciples he’s risen from the dead and didn’t the women come and say he’s risen from the dead? 

KEN: Luke said, I interviewed all these eyewitnesses. Did he not talk to the women?

BOB: Sure he did. And, you know, here’s the other thing. You’re talking to somebody who has a strong Plymouth Brethren position. I strongly believe that in the meeting of the local church, women should keep silent. I think Wes mentioned some of the verses, right? 

KEN: He mentions two, in particular, 1 Timothy chapter 2 verses 11 through 15, “Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.” And then verse 12, “I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, but to be in silence.” 

BOB: If you read 1 Timothy chapter 2, it’s all about the meeting of the local church. He even says, I want men to raise holy hands in prayer. And the word used for men there is aner, which is the word for males. It’s not the generic anthropos for people. So in the meeting of the local church, women aren’t even to pray. 

So in answer to Wes’s question, he said, can women pray and what else does he say can they sing? Well, women are not to pray in the meeting of the local church. But the way most evangelicals handle the meeting of the local church is the meeting of the local church starts when the pastor gets up to preach, right? So in most evangelicals would say that women can’t be the senior pastor, can’t be in the elder. Most conservative churches would say that. And they would say, but women can lead in prayer at church. They just can’t do it during the preaching time. 

KEN: Teaching time. 

BOB: And they would say a woman can’t stand up and interrupt the pastor either while he’s preaching, right, because they would say a man can’t interrupt the preacher either. If you or I stood up while somebody was preaching and we started talking, they’d take us out, right? 

KEN: Although I have been in some, I’m from Kentucky, and I have been in some country churches where, well, I got to tell you, the preacher will be up there preaching and guys will start getting, saying amen and they’ll just be, I’ve seen them get up in the middle of the sermon and shake the preacher’s hand and say, Amen, preach it brother, he’ll do that. And I’ve seen the preacher come down and shake hands. 

BOB: Well, I’ve been in churches where women have said amen while I’m speaking and I haven’t had a problem with that, but here’s the point. Paul is talking about a specific meeting there, the meeting of the local church. If you believe the meeting of the local church really starts when the pastor starts preaching, then there’s no problem with a woman giving announcements. There’s no problem with a woman leading in prayer. There’s no problem with a woman giving a testimony, a woman giving a little devotional. 

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BOB: But if you believe that the entire worship service is the meeting of the local church, then women shouldn’t be leading in prayer. At least they shouldn’t be teaching, but from my Plymouth Brethren perspective, the meeting of the local church starts with the taking of the bread and it ends with the taking of the cup and during that time women are not to speak. Now it wouldn’t mean that a woman couldn’t say pass the peas, right, or pass the salt please or something or a woman couldn’t talk to her children and take her children aside and deal with her children if she needed to. 

I have no problem with women teaching in a Bible college or Seminary. I have no problem with women speaking at—women speak at our national conference. We have no problem with that because it’s not church. 

Would you say then that if you’re going to carry this to its logical conclusion, then if you’re working at Sears and your boss is a woman, you can’t do that. Because a woman is now exercising authority. Didn’t you read the verse? He says, I don’t permit women to have authority over a man. And when he’s talking about being elders, right? And so he’s just saying a woman can’t be an elder and a woman can’t teach during the meeting of the local church. That’s all he’s saying. Can women teach Sunday school? Of course they can. With men in it?

When I was at First Baptist Dallas, I remember Mrs. Criswell had a class. Men and women were in the class. Well, Dr. Criswell was very big that only men could be deacons, which that was their version of elders. And only a man can be the senior pastor. But yet his wife taught a mixed group. That was no problem. 

How about writing commentaries, can women write commentaries? Why not? Can women write for our magazine? Why not? Can women write for our journal? Why not?

KEN: So the question here with Wes and his thing is, can a woman sing and pray the answer is yes. But what we’re saying is there are specific responsibilities for men and men are to be the leaders. And so the question, like from your background, I believe the meeting of the church is, again, your background, Plymouth Brethren, which isn’t most of the folks that are listening here. 

BOB: No. Most of you listening are probably in your typical hour long service and you have singing and you have prayer and you have announcements and then you have a sermon. 

KEN: And it’s in a case like that, it is during that specific time when the leader or leaders are preaching or teaching. 

BOB: That’s the only time in your church where a woman would need to be silent. Now, I would say if you’re in a Plymouth Brethren church and most Plymouth Brethren churches, by the way, don’t have a full meal. I used to be in one where we had a full meal, Bob Bryant has one where they have a full meal. If you do, from the time of the breaking of the bread till the time of the cup at the end of the after the meal, because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11, the Lord Jesus took the cup after supper, after the depnon saying, do this in remembrance of Me. 

So during that time, women would not be praying, the women would not be speaking, they would not be asking questions. Remember Paul says, I don’t even want women to ask questions, let them ask their husbands at home. 

KEN: Well, this brings up an interesting point—

BOB: But once that ends, in the Plymouth Brethren, the women can ask questions, the women can talk, etc. 

KEN: That brings up an interesting point though, and I know we’re running out of time. If you’re in a church that’s not Plymouth Brethren, but let’s say they have communion every week. Would you say it would be only during the time of communion? 

BOB: No, I would say because they don’t view that as church, they think communion is an add-on. So I would say for those churches, it’s the preaching time. But you might want to extend it to that. I’ve been in Bible churches where they have women handing out the elements, and they will say, the Lord bless you. Well, they’re speaking, and they’re giving a blessing, and they’re handing out the elements, and I don’t think that’s consistent with the Last Supper or with the Paul’s teaching on communion. But because most churches don’t view that as really part of the worship service, it’s kind of of an add-on at the end. Okay, maybe, you know—

KEN: So for most churches, your view that would be that it’s the pastor, it’s the preaching time. 

BOB: Right. Ken, let me give you a quick illustration. I remember I asked Zane about women wearing head coverings when they pray out loud, because that’s a Plymouth Brethren teaching, and it’s also taught in the Scripture, but people interpret the head covering oftentimes as [unintelligible], and they say, you don’t need a separate covering. And I asked him, I said, what about that, and Zane said, I don’t think you should enforce that like with your staff, if they know your view, and they don’t feel like they need to wear a hat, then don’t have them wear a hat. He said, I think at the Judgment Seat of Christ, that’s not going to be one of the big issues. 

And I think the same is true here. I think if a woman is making announcements, or if a woman is leading in prayer at church, that’s not going to be a huge issue at the Judgment Seat of Christ, in my opinion. I think the big issue would be, if a woman is preaching in church— 

KEN: And she’s the leader of the church. 

BOB: And she’s the leader of the church, to me, that’s a direct contradiction of Scripture, and you can’t hardly hide from that. If a woman is an elder in a local church, I see that as a Judgment Seat of Christ issue, but these other things, although they are issues, they’re real small compared to other things. So, Wes, I appreciate the questions, and in the meantime, let’s all keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode: does God love all believers in the same amount and in the same way? Please come back and join us. Until then, let’s keep grace in focus.