Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Hello, this is Grace in Focus, and welcome to our ongoing series about eschatology. Today we are looking at the beginning of the Tribulation Period, the first four seal judgments, and the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Thank you for joining us. It’ll be an interesting time. Grace in Focus is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Please go to our website and find out more about our free online seminary, and if you are interested, go ahead and go through the quick application process and get ready to study with us soon. And the website for it all is faithalone.org.

Now with today’s discussion, Bob Wilkin, Philippe Sterling, and Sam Marr. 

BOB: All right, welcome back to Grace in Focus. And we brought Sam Marr in to be a part of our discussion, Philippe, because we were talking about the four horsemen of the apocalypse, and Sam had some definite ideas about this, and we hadn’t gotten into this very much. We just briefly touched on it. Now the four horsemen are the first four seal judgments, right? 

PHILIPPE: One, two, three, and four. 

BOB: Let’s read those verses and then Sam, I want you to bring in, because we were talking about the fact that you would ask when we were talking about it, were we saying that Jesus might be the white horse rider, right? 

SAM: Right. 

BOB: And you said there was a problem with that. What was the problem? 

SAM: Well, I want to say I’m not an expert on any of this. I’m essentially a man off the street. But I think if you asked a man on the street who the four horsemen are, even if he’s never read the Bible, he’d probably say, oh yeah, it’s white horse, red horse, black horse, maybe green horse for famine or something. So most people are familiar with that concept and the majority of Americans, Christian or not, have probably never heard the idea that the white horse is Jesus. But then the issue you have, I’m not even against that view. I think it’s very possible. But then who were the other three horsemen? Are they unfallen angels, fallen angels, demonic forces? What do they represent if Christ is the first horsemen? 

BOB: Right, because you said if Christ is the first horsemen, how could two, three and four be fallen angels or demons? It wouldn’t make sense, right? Because now you’ve got Jesus somehow partnering with fallen angels. Of course, it’s not that the horsemen are Jesus and people with them. It’s the riders on the horses. Jesus is the white horse rider or he’s not. So let’s read these verses and then let’s go ahead and Sam, maybe you can read the verses that deal with the first four horsemen. 

SAM: Yeah, it starts in verse two, “And I looked and behold a white horse. He who sat on it, who had a bow; and a crown was given to him and he went out conquering and to conquer.” 

BOB: Okay, and that may refer to Jesus or it could refer to the man of sin. 

PHILIPPE: Right, and the argument for it being to Jesus is that he was given to go and conquer. So is it Jesus ultimately returning to establish his rulel and to conquer all the armies? And that is given a crown. So the point too in relating it to Revelation 19 is that he’s wearing many crowns a crown. So that’s the argument that those who hold that this is Jesus and that will be Zane Hodges and you mentioned John Claeys? 

BOB: And me against you two who both, I think, hold that this rider on the white horse is actually the man of sin, right? Is that the way you both take it? 

PHILIPPE: Yes, and that’s the way that a lot of prophecy teachers through the years have taken it. 

SAM: Yeah, and I want, to your side, Bob, John Claeys points out in his commentary that this is the only other location where we see a person with a crown on a white horse. So if this verse was in isolation, if there was only one horseman, then I think everyone would read this and be like, oh, that’s Jesus. We’ve already seen Him or later we’re going to see Him on a white horse or the crown. So the issue comes when we get to the next three horsemen. That’s where it becomes hard to reconcile and my view those two things. 

BOB: All right, so read verses three and four. 

SAM: So verse three, “When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, ‘Come and see.’ Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.” 

BOB: Okay, so the second guy is on a red horse and he is going out and people are killing one another as a result of what he does. 

PHILIPPE: So the idea is that he’s stirring up people to go to war. You know, against each other. And so a great bloodshed then.

BOB: That would be an argument that this is not an angel, an unfallen angel because we might think why would an unfallen angel cause people to have war, etc. Okay, what about the third one?

SAM: All right, “When he opened the third seal, I heard the living creature say, ‘Come and see.’ So I looked and behold, a black horse and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand and I heard a voice in the midst of the four creatures saying, ‘A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.'” 

BOB: Okay, now this is a bit puzzling here, but first of all, what’s the deal with the scales? 

PHILIPPE: So there’s an idea of famine taking place. The price of commodities, great inflation and great scarcity. So many will die out of starvation, which usually follows wars. 

BOB: And this is a black horse rider. So you go from white to red to black and now we’re going to have a fourth one that’s on this pale horse. 

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BOB: Well Sam, how about the fourth one? 

SAM: Yeah, verse seven. “When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, ‘Come and see.’ So I looked and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.” 

BOB: Okay, now when it says, let’s talk a bit more about Death and Hades here in a second, but notice it says power was given to them over a fourth of the earth. Does that mean a fourth of all the people on earth died during this fourth seal judgment? 

PHILIPPE: Yeah, so were the first four seals, then yes, 25% of the earth perishes to do the war, to do the famine, to do the beasts of the earth. 

BOB: Now, by the way, with the earth’s population approximately eight billion now, that would be two billion people dying at the first three and a half years. And of course, we don’t know exactly. Do we know when we get to the second half, which judgment is it that starts? In other words, we go seals, trumpets, bowls. So at what point do we get to the second half? 

PHILIPPE: Yeah, usually the trumpets follow towards the latter part of the first three and a half years and perhaps the early part of the second three and a half years. And then the bowl judgment is what’s typically seen towards the end of that second three and a half years because they’re so devastating and wipe out much of the earth. 

BOB: Okay. Now, Sam, maybe you could talk about what you were saying about you’ve got Death and Hades here. And Death and Hades also occur in Revelation chapter 20, don’t they? 

SAM: They do. And this is where I think the common understanding comes from and where it becomes an issue in Revelation 20:14. 

BOB: And this is called the Great White Throne Judgment between 11 through 15 and 20. 

SAM: So in verse 14, it says, then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 

BOB: So Death and Hades are together there and they’re cast into the lake of fire. This is called the second death. So how might that influence our understanding of Revelation six, where we’re talking in verses seven and eight about, what does it say? The name of the one who sat on this pale horse. So Death. 

PHILIPPE: Yeah, Death sat on the pale horse and Hades followed him. 

BOB: So Sam, what were you saying about that? 

SAM: Well, if you’re just having a casual reading, it seems like Death and Hades are being personified here. None of the other horsemen are personified. By the way, it’s only this horseman that’s given a name. So it seems like Death is personified and he’s killing a fourth of the earth. And then later he’s cast into the lake of fire because he’s now being judged for not just this, but presumably all of human history, death and Hades have been these forces. I think that’s the common understanding is the four horsemen represent either four fallen angels, four demons, or four concepts of evil, war, famine, death. And they’re going to have their time to go all out on the earth for this three and a half years. And then after this, there’s going to be no more death, no more Hades, no more famine and war. So all those things are going to be done away with. I think that’s the common understanding. 

BOB: In that way of thinking it would be therefore unlikely that the white horse rider would be the Lord Jesus Christ because then he would be associated with Death and Hades. But Philippe, even though you hold the view that the white horse rider is the man of sin, you were saying it’s probably not fair to say this is talking about Death and Hades, it’s really talking about the fourth rider is not Death and Hades, it’s Death and Hades followed him, which is slightly different than Revelation 25. 

PHILIPPE: Right, and here, that’s the point that we have two different contexts. The context of the Great White Throne Judgment and the four seals are two different contexts. So the terms Death and Hades may be using a different sense in Revelation 20 than it is used here in Revelation 6. 

BOB: And by the way, here it doesn’t say Death and Hades. In Revelation 20, it says Death and Hades with no punctuation in between. But here it says Death, comma, and Hades followed him. That’s different than saying Death and Hades. In fact, you pointed out, Philippe, that the imagery is something like you’ve got this grim reaper that’s killing all these people and Hades is behind him scooping them all up, taking all their souls into Hades. 

PHILIPPE: So they go through that temporary confinement space til the Great White Throne Judgment. So I think that’s how Hades is being in chapter 6 here. But Death and Hades in chapter 20 seem to be referring to the grave and to the spirits that are in Hades, that are all experienced their type of resurrection and are judged. And their name are not in the book of life and so they’re consigned to the Lake of Fire. 

BOB: So basically what we’ve done is we’ve left this very muddy. You need to think about this and study this. I’m still of the opinion that this is the Lord Jesus Christ and that these are unfallen angels who are with him. Sam makes a good point that only the fourth one were given name and a description of the person and we’re told that Hades is following him. That is an interesting point but many people, including Sam and Philippe, hold the view of the white horse rider is actually the man of sin. But I do like John Claeys’ point that this is the only place in Revelation where we have a white horse rider where he’s got a crown. It does make sense that they would both refer to Jesus but you’re going to need to pray about it think about it and study it. And we’ve just gotten to the the fourth seal. 

PHILIPPE: Three seal, seven Trumpets and seven bowls to go. 

BOB: So in the meantime, let’s all keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode we continue with the fifth and sixth seal judgments. Please join us and until then let’s keep grace in focus.