Transcript

ANNOUNCER: In light of Revelation 20, will all believers be reigning in the Millennium? Why does this passage sound like this could be the case? Thank you, friend, for joining us today. This is Grace in Focus, a radio broadcast and podcast of the Grace Evangelical Society. Find us at faithalone.org. We have many articles and books available to you there and you can learn about our online seminary. It’s a free seminary and you can earn an MDiv degree. We are gearing up for our fall semester and it is time now for you to put in your application if you haven’t already and then course selection for the fall will come up soon. Thank you for your interest. Find out more at faithalone.org. 

Now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Kathryn Wright. 

BOB: I’ve got a question here from Isaiah. Isaiah asks about Revelation 20:4-6, and he wants to know how we explain these verses as compared to let’s say Romans 8:17, we’re joint heirs with Christ if indeed we suffer with Him or a passage like Matthew 25:1-13, where five of the virgins get to be involved in the torch dance with sounds like ruling and the other five don’t or other passages, but yet it sounds like everybody in Revelation 20:4-6 gets to rule. Could you read that passage, Kathryn? 

KATHRYN: Revelation 20:4-6 reads, “And I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was committed to them, then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the Word of God who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years, but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection, blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first resurrection, over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years.” So yeah, I think his question is based on what’s going to happen to those who don’t reign? I think that was part of the question as well, right, Bob? 

BOB: Well, yeah, although I think his main point is it sounds like in verse 6 that everybody who’s in the Millennium reigns with the—everybody with a glorified body reigns. Now, I would argue that’s not what it says. I think what it’s saying is that among those who have a part in the first resurrection are those who reign, but not everybody reigns. Is that how you take it, Kathryn? 

KATHRYN: Yeah, and I understand that he also referenced Romans 8:17, which speaks of those who suffer with Christ will be joint heirs. And in this passage, we see he’s describing those who suffered, those who were beheaded, those who did not take the mark of the beast, which I would argue is during the Tribulation period. And so we’re speaking specifically of believers who live through the seven-year Tribulation. And certainly during that period of time, suffering is going to be elevated in ways we cannot possibly imagine, not really. And so, yes, I think even his connection to Romans 8 is a good one in that it supports what we see here in Revelation, which is that it’s those who suffer that will be heirs that will reign with Christ. 

BOB: Yeah, that’s a good point. And I say, Isaiah, that one of the keys to interpreting scripture is to let Scripture interpret Scripture. If we have various passages that say that not all believers will rule, then we know that this Revelation 20:4-6 can’t be saying that everybody’s going to rule. We know from the Parable of the Minas in Luke 19, that one’s going to rule over ten cities, one over five cities and one doesn’t get to rule at all. We see the same thing in the third servant and the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30. And we also know from 2 Timothy 2:12 that if we endure we will reign with Him, if we deny Him, He will deny us the privilege of ruling with Him. And also in 2 Timothy 4:6-8, Paul says, “I’ve run the race, I’ve finished the course, henceforth there’s laid up for me, the crown of righteousness, and not for me only, but for all who have loved His appearing.” Well, not all believers love His appearing, in 1 John 2:28 talks about that.

So it seems to me the way to take this, I like your point, Kathryn, he’s focusing on the people who suffered for Christ during the Tribulation. He’s saying, these are those who will come out of the Tribulation and rule and reign. Of course, he’s not denying the church age believers will rule and reign, or also the Old Testament believers will rule and reign. 

KATHRYN: Right. I think another way of wording it is, he’s not saying that all believers will reign. He’s saying that all believers who suffer will reign. 

BOB: Good point. 

KATHRYN: One of the other cross references that he talked about is the Parable of the Ten Virgins. And one of of the things that really opened my eyes to the Parable of the Ten Virgins and showing that that was not discussing how one is saved, but again, the idea of reigning and those who will be given a privileged position in this case, these virgins that will have an honorable role in the wedding celebration of this groom. And so it’s not how one enters, but the idea that the wise virgins had costly oil. 

ANNOUNCER: Did you know that the Grace Evangelical Society offers an MDiv degree through our online seminary? And tuition is free to those who maintain a 3.0 grade average. It is a three-year degree program and you could submit your application now to gain acceptance. Then stay apprised of our registration periods for upcoming semester terms. Program and application details can be found at GESSeminary.org. Have a look at our MDiv degree. Become an approved workman. Find out how GESSeminary.org. 

KATHRYN: So it’s not how one enters, but the idea that the wise virgins had costly oil and the unwise virgins needed to go buy more, that they needed to purchase this oil. In other words, this was something that cost money and it was something that is not given freely to believers. And so we see the distinction between eternal life being a free gift versus something that’s costly. And it’s very clear that the unwise, the foolish virgins had not prepared for this moment in a way and paid the price to have the oil. And so acknowledging that we’re talking about something that’s costly, which suffering for the Lord is a costly endeavor, maybe not literally in finances, although that can be the case. But certainly for Tribulation believers, it will be costly with potentially with their lives and their well-being. And so, and I think that there’s due cause to see the Parable of the Virgins is referring to believers during the Tribulation as well. So also connecting it to Revelation 20. 

BOB: Yeah, that’s a good point. And the parable immediately before that of the just and the unjust servant indicates this guy was ready to rule and reign. And then he said, my Lord delays His coming and he begins to beat his fellow servants and drink with the drunkards, and now he’s no longer called upon to reign with Christ. And the one after this, the Parable of the Talents, same thing. You’ve got two servants who are going to rule and reign, but the third one. No, he’s not going to rule and reign. Let’s look real quick at Romans 8:17, because he mentions that verse. And in Romans 8:17, the apostle Paul says, well, starting in verse 16, “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”

And I take it what he’s saying there is every time we pray, “Abba father”, the previous verse, then there’s a dual witness to God, the Father, we’re indeed his child. And that is number one, the Holy Spirit says, yes, this is our child. And unbeknownst to us, there’s a deep groaning within our human spirit that we’re indeed children of God. And then he says, “And if children then heirs, heirs of God.” So in other words, all children of God are heirs of God. And then he says “and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed”, the “if indeed” is conditional, “if indeed we suffer with him that we may be glorified together”. So clearly the condition of being a joint heir with Christ is suffering with Him. And we see the same thing in the book of Hebrews. Ken Yates has written a good book on Hebrews. We have in our grace New Testament commentary, a nice commentary by Paul Tanner on Hebrews. And they point out that suffering is the way you become Christ’s partners or co-rulers in the life to come. So I think Isaiah’s correct that Romans 8:17 establishes that we need to suffer with Christ and that that’s not an automatic. 

KATHRYN: Right. Same in the epistles of Peter, which we our national conference last year was on first and second Peter, but the idea that the believer who, first of all, that our that our trials are supposed to be a source of joy because they perfect and mature us, but that I think of that abundant entrance that Peter speaks of as well, that those who are diligent, those who add to their faith, those who suffer will not only enter the kingdom, but that they will have that abundant entrance when they come in. And so we see this throughout the teachings of the apostles and the Old Testament as well, but certainly in the New Testament. The Romans 8 passage, it always reminds me that Ken also did an article on this this passage for the journal. It was one of the first that really opened his eyes to the free grace teachings of rewards that what is the difference between being an heir and a joint heir? They’re different terms. So they mean different things. And so trying to show people the distinction that all believers are heirs, but those who suffer are joint heirs. That’s a different phrase. That’s a different concept that he’s introducing there. And it’s obviously, as you rightfully pointed out, conditional upon suffering. Well, eternal life is not conditional upon us suffering. That is a gift. And we know that from passages like in John and the woman at the well. But so we’re trying to show that distinction and Romans 8 really is a great one for that. 

BOB: That’s a good point. And a quick anecdote, I went to Dallas, Seminary with another former Campus Crusade for Christ staff member Tom, and Tom was a five point Calvinist, but he did take a lot of the classes with Zane Hodges. And in his last year in Seminary, he was preaching in 2 Peter 1:5-11. And the beginning of the passage says “add to your faith” and then it gives a bunch of character qualities. And the end of the passage says, “so a rich entrance will be supplied to you”. And he noticed in the Greek that the same word used in verse 5, add to your faith, epichoregeo, is used at the end of the passage. So a rich entrance will be added to you, except it’s in the passive voice in verse 11, because God’s going to do the adding. And he said, “I couldn’t hold the Calvinist view that faith was going to give me this rich entrance because I had to add to it. All these character qualities, one of which was perseverance.” So he, he said, “I suddenly went from being a five point Calvinist to a Free Grace person.” It was like a hundred dominoes just fell. And he knew all the passages. So I love Isaiah’s question. I think he’s asking the right kind of question. But keep in mind, if you don’t know the answer to a particular passage, realize Scripture can’t contradict itself. 

KATHRYN: Agreed. 

BOB: All right. Well, Kathryn, let’s make sure that we keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER; We invite you to check out our Monday, Wednesday and Friday, five minute YouTube videos at YouTube Grace Evangelical Society. You will love the content and learn a lot. Maybe you’ve got a question or comment or feedback. If so, please send us a message. Here’s our email address. It’s radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. Please make sure your question is as succinct and clear as possible. That would be a great big help. 

On our next episode: are there degrees of discipleship? Come back and join us and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.