ANNOUNCER: As human beings, we obviously have a body, and we obviously have immaterial parts, some say a soul and a spirit, some would say just a soul that maybe includes a spirit. But our question today is, before a person becomes a believer, do they have a spirit at all? Or is a verse maybe like John 3:6, “That which is born of the spirit is spirit,” suggesting that a person doesn’t receive a spirit until he is born again? Let’s discuss this today here on Grace and Focus. Glad you’ve joined us, friend. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org. You can also find similar content on our YouTube channel, YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. You’ll find our short videos there, so please go and watch them and like them, and tell your friends about them. Then back to our website, there’s lots more there, go there to learn a lot about us, including our events, our magazine, our online seminary. Again, it’s faithalone.org. 

Now with today’s question and answer, here’s Bob Wilkin, along with Sam Marr. 

SAM: All right, Bob, we’ve got a question from Lindsey, and this is a very philosophical one. So the short version of our question is, do unbelievers have a spirit? I think we’ve got to go to John 3, where she gives a little bit more context. She says, I know we are flesh and soul, all people have the breath of life, but it seems that from John chapter 3, a person doesn’t have a spirit until they are born of the spirit, or some like to say born again from above. 

BOB: “That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit.” 

SAM: So the way I would map that out, then if this was my view, it would be a person is born, they’re born into this fallen world, they’re born into sin, I guess, with a sin nature, depending on how you view that, but they just have a consciousness and a body, but they don’t have a soul or a spirit. And so then when someone believes in Christ everlasting life, being born again, they now have a soul for the first time, I think that’s what she is presenting here. 

BOB: Well, now I think, see, you’re using soul and spirit interchangeably, and she seems to be using soul and spirit differently, but you’re illustrating the difference between people who say there are two parts of a human, that’s called the dichotomous position, or three parts, the trichotomous position. And at Dallas Seminary, you know, we debated this, was an open discussion, not everybody agrees. There is a verse in Hebrews, you know, chapter four, I guess it is, where the Word of God divides as far as the division of soul and spirit. So a lot of people use that verse to say, there are three parts to the human, the body, the physical, and the immaterial, the inner person, which has two parts, the soul, and the spirit. 

Other people say, no, soul and spirit are indivisible. They’re the same thing. Well, that’s a problem with that Hebrews verse, because it does talk about even dividing those. So and remember when Eutychus falls out of the window in Acts chapter 20 and Paul goes down and says, his spirit is still in him. The point seems to be that as long as his spirit is still in him, he’s still alive, or he’s capable of being brought back to life. Let’s put it that way. It seems he did die and then Paul did raise him, but…

SAM: Well, and then the throughout the New Testament soul and life are used interchangeably, right? 

BOB: Soul, psuche, can be a reference to the inner self, but it often just refers to the life. I mean, like, for example, Jesus laid down his life for us. That’s the word soul, psuche. So sometimes soul is just life. Sometimes it refers to the immaterial part of life. 

But what I would suggest is that at birth, every person has body, soul, and spirit, but that their spirit is simply a human spirit devoid of the Holy Spirit. So in that sense, when they are born again, well, now their spirit is especially energized. I don’t know how you would put it, but there are people who say, yeah, the spirit is kind of like, let’s say at birth, the human has this slot for the spirit, but it’s not filled because they don’t have the Holy Spirit. 

SAM: But see, I think there’s a problem with that. I’m not saying that’s your view, but I think the problem with that is Adam and Eve. They were humans and no indication that their anatomy physically and spiritually is any different than the modern day human. I mean, they lived a lot longer. But there’s no indication that they didn’t have a spirit or they had an empty slot waiting for the Holy Spirit because they were intended, they were created the way they were intended to be. They weren’t created imperfect. 

BOB: Now, they were created innocent. So they’d not yet sinned before they ate the forbidden fruit. And yet it would be fair to say, I think, is this your point, that in their innocence, they did have a soul and they probably also had a spirit. That’s what I’m saying because they were created to be the way they were. They fell and then they needed salvation. So they needed everlasting life after the fact. But before they fell, they didn’t need the Holy Spirit to indwell them and they didn’t need everlasting life because they would have just lived indefinitely in their bodies. I mean.

BOB: Well, yeah, if God had removed the ability for them to sin, this is kind of philosophical, but think of it this way. After we die, we’re not going to sin anymore, right? Right. As believers, once we die, we’ve committed our last sin. 

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BOB: We’re not sure when we are glorified, but it appears to be at the time of the Rapture, because Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, in the twinkling of an eye, we’re going to be changed. And in 1 Thessalonians 4, he said, the dead in Christ will rise first. So it seems like at the time of the Rapture, we will be glorified. When we are glorified, then we’re never going to sin again, but we’ll still have a soul and a spirit and a body. 

Well, Adam and Eve, before they fell, were kind of like what we will be like after we’re glorified, except for the fact that they were capable of sinning and we won’t be. And once they sinned, of course, they began the process of death. It took 930 years for Adam to die, but he began dying that very day. His cells began the gradual process of decaying death. 

So what I would argue, I hold to the trichotomous position, there’s a body, there’s two parts to the inner self. I don’t know how you distinguish between soul and spirit. And I don’t know exactly how that changes from the time the person’s an unbeliever to a believer. Other than, as you said, the unbeliever does not have the Holy Spirit living within him. The unbeliever does not have everlasting life. And so the believer is the one who has the potential of bringing great glory to God and the believer is the one who’s indwelt by the Holy Spirit. 

I would say to Lindsay, yes, unbelievers have a spirit, a human spirit. That’s why, okay, think of Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. Here’s this Gentile Centurion, someone who’s called a devout man and he’s someone whose prayers and alms ascended to God. Well, how can he have prayers and alms that descend to God and please God before he’s born again, unless there’s some kind of inner self, whether you call it soul or spirit or both, he had to be able to in some sense respond to God. 

SAM: Yeah, I think if you hold to that view, you basically imply that before someone’s born again, they’re like an animal, because a lot of people would say animals don’t have a spirit. They’re just part of nature or whatever. So if you’re going to make that argument, it gets pretty dicey when you try to distinguish. 

BOB: I’m not even sure you can conclude that with animals. You have a dog right now, right? Does your dog have some kind of inner self? It seems like it. All the dogs I’ve met either are really sweet and nice, then there’s gnarly mean, but whatever. 

SAM:Yeah, ironically, I think animals have personality and maybe personality’s not the right word, because there’s not a person in it.

BOB: It may not be the right word.

SAM: But we know there is a difference. They’re not made in God’s image, whatever that means. 

BOB: They probably have an inner self of some kind too. 

SAM: They have consciousness. They have inner thoughts to some degree. 

BOB: So remember that Balaam’s donkey actually talks to Balaam when the Lord loosens his tongue. And so we would call them sentient beings, the higher animals. 

SAM: But they also can’t sin, which is a difference between… 

BOB: Well, that’s another question. I’m not so sure animals can’t sin, but okay, it’s just sometimes if an animal mauled a human, they would put the animal to death. 

SAM: I don’t think that’s the justice system. I think that’s practical. 

BOB: Okay. All right. 

SAM: But yeah, with the spirit thing, the way I was thinking about it while you were talking is I don’t think the view that there’s an empty slot waiting for the Holy Spirit. I don’t think that’s correct. This isn’t biblical, but maybe everyone’s got a two bedroom apartment in their heart. So your spirit’s there, but it’s waiting for a roommate. So yeah, you’ve got room for the Holy Spirit to move in. 

BOB: Yeah, Munger wrote this book, My Heart, Christ’s Home. And he basically used that analogy and said that when we come to faith in Christ, we really don’t know all of the problems and the issues and our areas of disobedience and our wrong attitudes, our wrong actions. But over time, the Lord comes in and shows us things. And we confess those things and he then more or less moves into that area of our life. Well, I don’t know if that’s a terrific illustration, but I know that booklet was real popular when I was on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ. 

And I think it has some truth in it in the sense that part of Romans 12 too, as our mind is renewed, that means our behavior is transformed. And so the transformation doesn’t seem to take place instantaneously. But it’s a gradual transformation as the Word of God invades our minds. And so I tend to think that the key element in our soul and spirit glorifying God is our mind being conformed to Christ’s mind. That’s why Paul says we have the mind of Christ in 1 Corinthians 2:16. Unbelievers don’t have the mind of Christ and even new believers don’t yet have the mind of Christ. You’ve got to grow to the point where you have that. That’s why Paul calls them in 1 Corinthians 14-16. The pneumatikoi, the spiritually-minded people. 

You know, the Scriptures don’t give us a direct answer, but I think our speculation is probably helpful. Anyway, you can think about it. And in the meantime, let’s all keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode: can you have faith in Christ without 100% assurance? Is assurance always 100%? We will see you next time and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.