Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Did Jesus’ death pay the penalty for our sins? Most would say yes, but let’s think very comprehensively about this question today here on Grace in Focus. Thank you, friend, for joining us. This is a broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Find us at faithalone.org.  And on that website, we have many articles that we’ve written from our Free Grace perspective, some free ebooks, videos, blogs, and our bookstore where you can find Bob Wilkin’s latest book. The Gospel Is Still Under Siege. Also, have a look at our events page to find out about our conference, our national conference coming up this May, and about regional conferences in the meantime. Now, it’s all at faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org. 

And now, with today’s topic of discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Sam Marr. 

SAM: Okay, Bob, we don’t have a question for today, but we’ve got a topic, and you chose the topic, but I’m introducing it for you. And this is a pretty big topic, and it’ll be a two-parter, so stay tuned for the next episode. 

BOB: Or more than two. 

SAM: I mean, we could spend probably until Christ comes back talking about this. So the big question is, did Jesus pay the penalty for our sins? And it’s through His death on the cross. “Did He pay the penalty” is the phrase that a lot of people use. But I think you have some insight on this. 

BOB: Okay, so the short answer is no. He did not pay the penalty for our sins. But I assume you want some sort of explanation. 

SAM: Yeah, before people tune out of this program, you should probably explain what you mean by that. 

BOB: Okay. So, what do you think most people mean when they say pay the penalty for our sins? What would they say the penalty for our sins is? 

SAM: Yeah, the common understanding is all people are sinners. Our sin separates us from God, and the only way for that sin to not separate us from God anymore is for a perfect sacrifice, Christ, to be made to pay that price. Now, the price is paid. I’m no longer separated from God. 

BOB: Okay, so is that true? What you just said, has the price been paid so that my sin no longer separates me from God? Or is that not true? What most people think is that’s not true. Most people would say the blood of Christ doesn’t accomplish anything until you believe in the blood of Christ. The idea is you can’t come up to someone and say Christ has already taken away your sin barrier, the sin problem, the cross bridges the gap between God and man. And so the issue is you’re dead and you need life. And if you believe in Jesus, he’ll give you life. And the reason why that works is because the blood of Christ has eliminated the sin barrier. 

You’ve seen lots of tracts, right? Where they show the cross bridging this gap. But yet, most people when they explain it, they basically say the cross potentially bridges the gap. And that’s called limited atonement—that Christ’s death doesn’t apply to everybody. It only applies to the elect, for a Calvinist, or for a lot of people, they would say, for those who believe He died on the cross for their sins. 

And then they have real complicated ways of explaining that because, as you know, most everybody in Christianity believes Christ died on the cross for their sins, right? Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, even people in cults like Latter-day Saints, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, almost every Protestant. In fact, I saw a study recently and it said something like two out of three Americans believe Christ died on the cross for their sins. SAM: It’s kind of the focal point of all of Scripture, but also human history. I mean, the way our calendar structure is based on his birth. 

BOB: Right. AD means what? Anno Domini, in the year of the Lord, we’d say in the year of the Lord 1520 or in the year of the Lord, 2025 or whatever. When they say He paid the penalty for our sins, they say, okay, he took away our sins. If that’s what they mean, I would say great. Now my next question would be Sam, where in the Bible does it say that the penalty of our sins is that we’re separated from God. Is there some verse you can think of that says that? 

SAM: No. I mean, the closest I can think is that the wages of sin are death and death is characterized as a separation. 

BOB: Okay. Let me go there. A lot of people say, and I think you’ve heard this before, that when Adam and Eve sinned, they died spiritually. Have you ever heard that one? And so they say that the blood of Christ reverses that so that the blood of Christ pays the penalty for spiritual death. Not physical death because they go, hey, we all die physically. And when Paul says in Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, he’s talking about all of us. In fact, in Romans 5, he says, all die in Adam. We all die and we die because we’re sinners. Look at Genesis 5, it’s a whole litany of all the patriarchs and the common expression is “and he died”. Adam and he died. And then we go to Seth and he died and so forth. We go all the way through till we get to Noah. 

But death is something that is not taken away by the cross. Now it will be ultimately when Jesus returns and after the Millennium, there will be no more death. But the cross itself hasn’t eliminated death. Now, what about spiritual death? Here would be my answer. If Adam and Eve died spiritually when they sinned, then what was true of them before they sinned? 

SAM: They were spiritually alive? 

BOB: And what would that mean? Well, when Paul says in Ephesians 2:1-5, when you were dead in your trespasses and sins, he made us alive. What does that refer to? 

SAM: Being born again? 

BOB: Being born again. If that’s your view, then you hold the view that Adam and Eve were born again before they sinned and then they lost their eternal life and they died spiritually. Wait a minute, if once saved always saved is true now, it was true then. So if Adam and Eve were born again before they ate the forbidden fruit, then they were born again after they ate the forbidden fruit. 

No, what happened was Adam and Eve were innocent and they were like unfallen angels. They didn’t have eternal life, but they didn’t need it. They had a potentially eternal relationship with God. And the assumption most dispensationalists have, if Adam and Eve had not sinned, at some point God would have withdrawn their ability to sin. He would have made them like we will be in eternity future where we will be sinless. He could have said, okay, I’m turning off the switch. You’re now unable to sin anymore. He could have done that, but it didn’t happen because they sin. 

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BOB: But when they sin, what became apparent was, because they lacked eternal life, now that’s a problem. You see, they were spiritually dead before they sin, but that didn’t matter because you don’t need everlasting life if you’re not a sinner. 

SAM: Right. Death hadn’t entered the world yet. But I’ve heard a lot of the people say if God had allowed them to have everlasting life and then they chose to sin, then now they live forever being sin and can’t be redeemed. I don’t know if that’s the view you hold. 

BOB: Oh no. In my view, if they had everlasting life before they sinned, then they didn’t need the death of Christ to get eternal life. But the Scriptures are clear, starting in Genesis 3:15, that the seed of the woman had to die on the cross in order to defeat the serpent. In order for us to have everlasting life, He had to die on the cross. Adam and Eve grasped that and I believe they came to faith right after they heard the first gospel very shortly after they fell. But if they had not fallen, they never would have had everlasting life. 

You see, when we tell people, John 3:16, that’s couched in the language of John 3:14-15. Remember, as the serpent was lifted up, so shall the Son of Man be lifted up, they looked at the serpent, they live, you look to Jesus, you live. The point is not that Nicodemus understood He was talking about the cross. The disciples didn’t understand He was talking about the cross at that point. In fact, when he told him he was going to die, Peter rebuked him. Remember, Matthew 16:22-23 and said, get behind me Satan because the cross is where Jesus had to go. 

But let’s talk for a minute and maybe in part two, we can get into this more. If I go out and I commit murder, is that a sin? 

SAM: Yes. 

BOB: Is there a penalty for that sin? 

SAM: Yes. 

BOB: Is that penalty from God or is that just a natural consequence? I mean Israel under the law of Moses and I commit murder. What’s the penalty? 

SAM: Death. 

BOB: Death. Is that from God or is that for man? When Paul says the government bears the sword as a representative of God, if the US government says the penalty for murder is life in prison, let’s say, is that penalty ultimately from God? 

SAM: Yeah. 

BOB: If we’re under the governing authorities, God put the governing authority there. What if the government says that penalty in certain circumstances is death? So we have a death penalty. Wouldn’t that be from God too? 

SAM: Yeah. 

BOB: Okay. So here’s my point. Look at Romans 1, it’s around verse 26 and by the way, do you know the word penalty only occurs three or four times in the Bible only once in the New Testament in Romans 1, homosexual men are receiving in their own bodies the penalty for their sin. How does it go? 

SAM: Yeah. “Likewise, also the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust for another, men with men committing what is shameful and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error, which was due.” 

BOB: Now that’s the only use of the word penalty in the New Testament, in the New King James, and very little in any other translation. So is that penalty taken away by the blood of Christ? And the answer is no. In fact, I would argue, no penalty is taken away by the blood of Christ. 

John 1:29 says, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” He makes us saveable. That verse says that now the issue is not our sins. We don’t have to tell a person you need to deal with your sins. You need to turn from your sins. You need to promise to serve God. You need to clean up your life. The good news is Jesus has already dealt with your sins. He’s already removed the sin barrier. The cross bridges that, but here’s the problem. You’re dead, you need life. But here’s the good news. The way to get that life is simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you have everlasting life that you can never lose. 

So let’s pick up on that again in part two. But don’t you think this is a fun discussion? 

SAM: I think it’s a much talked about discussion and a very misunderstood topic in Christianity, but I don’t think we need to struggle with it or let it cause doubt. I think it’s clear enough that we can talk about it with people, even if they disagree with us. And as long as we’re explaining, this is the promise that Christ made. He promised us life and life in his name, I think it’ll be clear to all people. Okay, that is life. Now let’s talk about everything that’s not life. 

BOB: Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. We’ll try another part and whether we can finish in two or three or whatever. We’ll see. And by the way, this is a question we get a lot, even though we don’t have a particular name to associate with it. We hear lots of emails and lots of calls and questions and things. I know you talked to a lot of people on the phone. I think you talked to somebody earlier today where you were interacting on this general subject. 

Well, thanks everybody for listening and let’s remember to keep something in focus: grace in focus. Amen. 

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On our next episode, we’ve continued the discussion about Christ’s death. What did it accomplish? Please join us. And in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus. The preceding has been a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.