Transcript

ANNOUNCER: What is annihilationism? Is there any biblical evidence for it? We will answer a couple of questions about it today on Grace in Focus. We’re delighted you’ve joined us. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org and there you can get information about our free magazine, also called Grace in Focus. It is beautifully done. We publish bi-monthly and yes, it is free as long as you live in the 48 contiguous United States. For all others it’s still free, but you have to pay the postage. Get signed up for it today at faithalone.org. 

Now with today’s question and answer discussion here are Bob Wilkin and Sam Marr. 

SAM: All right, Bob. We’ve got a question from one of your recent YouTube videos. You did a video on Revelation 3:20, what does it mean when Jesus says He’s standing at the door and knocks and you did a really good job of explaining that that is not talking about letting Christ into your heart for everlasting life, but and you explain what that is. So I recommend everyone go check out that video. But T.Y. was watching that video and left a comment and said, “Does annihilationism contradict saving faith? What I’m asking is can you interpret eternal life as eternal existence and perishing as eternal non-existence and still have the first moment of saving faith?” So there’s really two questions here. First, we should probably explain what annihilationism is. 

BOB: Okay, annihilationism is the view that after the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15, which I’d encourage you to read, then what happens is all of the unbelievers, all who are not written in the book of life for Revelation 20:15 are cast into the lake of fire. And according to this view, once they arrive at that planet or whatever it is, they cease to exist. They’re destroyed. They’re annihilated—that’s why it’s called annihilationism—so that they are no longer conscious. In fact, they’re no longer existing. They have simply gone out of existence. That’s annihilationism. It’s also called conditional immortality. In other words, the believers are immortal and the others, they die forever. 

Now, that’s a little bit misleading because in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says our resurrection is “mortality putting on immortality”. The people in the lake of fire are spiritually dead, but they are physically alive, because they are raised from the dead before the Great White Throne Judgment. And they are not annihilated after the Great White Throne Judgment, but they’re mortal. Mortal means they have mortal bodies bodies that can experience pain torment and so they will. 

Now I’ve argued in my book, The Ten Most Misunderstood Words, that people in the lake of fire will have tolerable torment. It will be more tolerable for some than for others because, you remember, Jesus said it’ll be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for certain cities in Israel that rejected the direct ministry of Jesus. And the same thing with the Ninevites. So I would argue that annihilationism is unbiblical, but you’ve not asked that part of it yet. So let’s go. 

SAM: Yeah, but now the question is for us as Free Gracers, if someone, let’s say they’re an unbeliever. They’re being pre-evangelized and they’re given that understanding when someone who’s an unbeliever dies, they’ll be cast in the lake of fire after the Great White Throne Judgment and then they’ll cease to exist. And then they explain the message of life and that person says I believe in Jesus Christ or everlasting life. I believe John 3:16, I shall not perish but have everlasting life. But to them the “perish” in that verse means disappear forever. Stop existing. Does that person have everlasting life if that’s what they believe? 

BOB: Okay, I’ll answer that, but let’s circle back to why annihilationism is not true because I’ve not given a full answer on that. I think we can look at certain verses, but in terms of that second question, the issue is at the moment of faith, does the person believe the promise of everlasting life in John 3:16? Does he or she believe that by faith in Jesus, he or she Is secure forever that they have everlasting life; they can never lose it? Now, if they have other views that are wrong but they don’t contradict the message of life then they’re still born again. And annihilationism would be one of those views. 

In other words, If they think, well those who don’t believe are going to be annihilated they’re wrong, but that doesn’t stop them from believing the message of John 3:16. 

SAM: I don’t think so. I wouldn’t say that it contradicts the promise of life. It would just be an incorrect view of the afterlife. 

BOB: Right, and so there’s lots of false doctrines that people could believe and yet still be born again. You know, they might think, for example, that we’re going to spend eternity in heaven, which is absolutely wrong. We’re going to spend eternity, according to Revelation 21 and 22, on the new earth. We were designed to be in the third heaven where the Shekinah glory of God is. That’s a temporary way station, if we die before the Rapture. 

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BOB: But we’re going to spend eternity on the new earth and we’re going to have glorified bodies. But if a person thinks somehow that they’re going to be floating on clouds and strumming a harp, but they believe the promise of life, they still have it. And the same thing would be true with annihilationism. If they believe that, that’s a wrong doctrine, but it doesn’t stop them from believing in the promise of life. 

I’ll even give you another example. When I was at Woodcrest College out in East Texas, I remember I had a student in my class that was an MK. He grew up in the rainforest of Brazil or something and his parents worked with Indian tribal peoples. These people were very, very superstitious. So they had little charms and amulets and things that protected them from the evil spirits. And when he was in my class, he realized that what I was teaching, was that whoever believes in Jesus for everlasting life has everlasting life, and that’s all we need to believe. 

So he said, what about these Indian people that believed in charms and amulets? Did they have to give that up before they could be born again? So I asked him, I said, well, you tell me? Were they believing that the charms and amulets gave them eternal life? And he said, oh no, no way. The charms and amulets were to save them here and now from evil spirits. And I said so in your opinion could they believe in Jesus for their eternal destiny aand yet still use a charm and amulet with the evil spirits? And he goes, yeah of course why not? He said, wow he said, my parents always told them they had to give them up. I mean, of course charms and amulets are something that believers should give up; read Acts chapter 19. The believers in Ephesus burned their magic books. But they’d been believers for 18 months at this point when they burned their magic books. So yeah, we should give that up. 

Let’s go back to the first part. How do we know that annihilationism is not true? Because in Revelation 14:11 it says the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And this torment is those who are going to be experiencing judgment during the Tribulation. But that’s going to go on because they’re unbelievers who are going to be going on forever. Also, you have Revelation 19:20. I think you have it there in front of you, don’t you? 

SAM: Yep. 19:20 says, “Then the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence by which you deceive those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.” 

BOB: Yeah, so they’re cast alive into the lake of fire This is, of course, before the Millennium and before the Great White Throne Judgment. Well now we’re not told do they come back to the Great White Throne Judgment to be judged? I would assume they do, because they need their day in court. And then they get thrown back into the lake of fire. But one thing that’s interesting is all of the unbelieving dead are raised before they’re judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. So they too are cast alive into the lake of fire because they’ve been raised from the dead. So annihilationism is totally wrong. 

Another reason it’s wrong is this: in the creation account, God intended Adam and Eve to live forever in natural bodies. He never intended them to need to be glorified. The original intent was not for Jesus to need to go to the cross. Now of course God knew that they were going to sin, and He knew that Jesus was going to go to the cross, and He knew this forever, which is kind of mind-boggling. But the truth is until they sinned, the death of Messiah didn’t become necessary. And until they sinned, they were going to live forever. Well God’s original intention is going to be fulfilled—everyone will live forever. 

The other thing I think to keep in mind is people want to continue to exist. And I don’t hold the view that if you came up to people in the lake of fire and said, “Would you like to be annihilated?” that they’d say yes. I think they would want to cling to life. I get the fact that in Luke 16, for example, the rich man says, “I’m in torment in these flames,” but I don’t buy the view that he’s on fire and that there are flames shooting out of him. That’s medieval theology. It’s not Bible. Read my chapter on hell. It’s bad. It’s not a great place. But this life isn’t a great place to live. This life has torment in it—lots of it.  And yet most people would say if you could live forever would you? And they would go, yeah, even if you had some back pain and some knee pain and some shoulder pain. Oh, yeah.

And so I don’t think that annihilationism is what people in the lake of fire would prefer. SAM: And the bottom line is you can’t build a theology off an emotional argument. You build your theology off of what God has stated; and human’s idea of fairness is not quite as good as God’s Sovereign justice. Tthat’s something that people really struggle with, but I don’t want it to be up to me how people spend eternity. I want the Guy who created the universe, who knows what’s just, to make those decisions. And even if it’s hard for me, that’s an issue on me, not on our Creator. 

BOB: I love what you just said because truth is, God is just. Therefore everything He says and does is just. If we see something God does and we think it’s unjust, the problem’s with us, not with God. And I would encourage all of you to study the Scriptures, to be a Berean, Acts 17:11. God is good; even the lake of fire is ultimately part of His good plan. We may never understand all of it, but what we do know is, God is just, God is good, and annihilationism is not true. And the promise of everlasting life is glorious and true. So nobody needs to be going to the lake of fire. Jesus paid it all for everyone. Just believe in him and you have eternal life. Unfortunately most people are rejecting His free gift of eternal life, but that’s not on Him. That’s on them. Sam, what are we going to do? 

SAM: We’re going to keep grace in focus. 

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And on our next episode: what exactly must one believe to receive everlasting life? Hope you’ll join us. Until then, let’s keep grace in focus.