Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Is there a hierarchy of motivation for following Christ, living as His disciple, and pleasing Him? What motivates you? Let’s talk about it next on Grace in Focus. Glad you’ve joined us today. Grace in Focus is a radio broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. We have a website, faithalone.org. We invite you to go there. Learn more about us, including our free online seminary, Grace Evangelical Seminary, where you can earn an MDiv degree. That’s at faithalone.org.

Now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Ken Yates and Kathryn Wright. 

KEN: Welcome back to Grace in Focus, and we have a question from Micah. I think this is a great question. This is one that we, I don’t know if we hear the question a lot, but we hear it discussed. The issue. We hear the issue discussed a lot, especially when it comes to rewards and Christian living. So what is the question that Micah asks us?

KATHRYN: Well, it’s an issue on motivation for Christian living, so what motivates us to be obedient to follow the Lord, specifically, is there hierarchies in terms of what is considered godly motivations? 

KEN: Like is one motivation better than enough? Or is there one motivation that’s better than all the rest? 

KATHRYN: Exactly. So we acknowledge that there’s many different types of motivation in the Bible, and we can talk about that here in a second, but is one better than the other? 

KEN: And the reason I like this question is because once we understand that works have nothing to do with eternal life, you know, like the Calvinist who says, well, if you don’t do good works then you really weren’t saved, so in their theology, you’re always looking at your works to see if you’re going to make it, to see if you’re one of the elect, or an Arminian who says, well, if you don’t do good works, you’ll lose your salvation. Once you understand that that’s a bunch of garbage, and it’s unbiblical, and that works deal with rewards and other issues, which we’re going to talk about. 

And that’s the question. Are there some motivations that are greater than others? And the reason I bring that up is because even among grace people, even people who understand this, a lot of times they’ll say, oh yeah, right? I mean, it’s the greatest motivation is…

BOTH: Love…

KEN: Right? And I think even if it’s subconscious or even if it’s not stated, I think even grace people would say, you know, I wish I was at the place where everything I did was just because I love God. 

KATHRYN: That’s the goal.

KEN: You know, yeah, because now let’s talk about the other other motivations, what are some other motivations for obeying God? 

KATHRYN: Oh my goodness, there’s so many, but off the top of my head, we know that fear is one. Fear is the beginning of wisdom. But yes, that I don’t want to experience the consequences of my sin, because I know that my God, my Father in heaven is going to bring in His wrath, His disciplinary hand upon me. 

KEN: And by the way, that’s two separate things. One is, He’s going to discipline me. And then the other one is, well, if I sin, it doesn’t have to be a direct discipline of God, sin just has its own consequences. You know, I mean, if I drink and drink and drink and drink and get in a car and drive, I’m drunk and I wreck my car. 

KATHRYN: Maybe hurt yourself or even—

KEN: Or other people, you know, so it’s not like, okay, God—

KATHRYN: Or my liver. 

KEN: Right, or, yeah, or I get sick or whatever the case may be. So we have fear. I don’t want the consequences of sin. I don’t want the discipline of God. We’ve already talked about the love of God. We love Him. “If you love Me, you’ll obey My commandments.” Okay. So there’s a, there’s a motivation. 

KATHRYN: I think, another one is I want, well, I mean, one that we talk about all the time is grace people is rewards. Right. That’s a, I mean, a huge motivation that is presented in Scripture. 

I also think of the idea of I want to be of use to my family, to, to my community, to my church. That, you know, to your example of, of, if I drink too much. And that’s probably an easy one, but let’s just go with it. Well, if I’m a drunk all the time, what is that going to do to my kids? What is that going to do to my marriage? What is that going to do to my church? What is that going to do in terms of my reputation to the world? And I mean, that’s different than just the direct consequences to me, but actually, the consequences to those around me. 

KEN: Well, yeah, the New Testament is full of teachings that we have a responsibility to others. And one of the ways that we serve others is to be an example for them. I don’t want to put words into your mouth, but that’s basically what we’re saying here. If I can be an example for others and they can benefit from my example, you know, like, for example, in Hebrews 10, “Let us encourage one another as we see the Day draw near.” And so yeah, there’s, there’s—

KATHRYN: Going to that point, if I struggle with that sin, let’s say alcohol. Okay, yes, I, I do it because I, I don’t drink because I love the Lord. That’s great. But maybe a more just real practical, tangible thing that I can see is that I don’t want to drink because I don’t want to be a drunk around my kids and I don’t want them to be harmed by it. Is that not also a legitimate motivation?  And sometimes can be more motivating than this abstract feeling of love towards God. 

KEN: Right. And then of course, another motivation and it’s related to what we’ve already talked about is I want to be closer to Him. I want intimacy with Him right now, I know rewards, of course, is talking about in, in eternity. But even here, if I walk in obedience, I become more like Christ and I’m in fellowship with Him and I want to become more like Him. 

Okay. So we have all these motivations and I’m sure if we had time, we could—

KATHRYN: So many more. 

KEN: Yeah. But the question is, is love the highest one? And again, I’ve heard it from grace people and I’ve heard it even in seminary. And by the way, you’ll even—kind of ironic, I don’t know if irony is the right word here, but when you talk to people who don’t believe in rewards, this is one of the things they’ll say, because well, I don’t need those other rewards. I don’t need those other motivations. I just love the Lord. 

KATHRYN: Yeah, they’ll even say a common reason for the rejection of the doctrine of rewards is that it will be deemed selfish. 

KEN: That’s right. And so I just want to love the Lord. That’s all I care about. And so don’t talk to me about these things. 

KATHRYN: Those Free Gracers are selfish. They don’t love the Lord. I do. 

KEN: Right. Which by the way, they usually are talking about rewards there, but what about those other motivations? Is it selfish for me to want to live a good life so that I give an example for others to want to have intimacy with Christ and become more like Him, to want to avoid the consequences of sin in this life. And so that’s not a valid charge against those who don’t believe in rewards. 

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KEN: And we’ll just play our cards on the table right now. Kathryn and I don’t believe in these hierarchy and motivations. 

KATHRYN: If anything, I think in a lot of ways that idea is a false humility and that’s probably really controversial. I don’t want to be super controversial here, but that idea that, well, I just do it because I love Him. I think that’s coming from at least at times a, a, you’re rejecting the doctrine of rewards or those that are rejecting the doctrine of rewards as selfish and, oh, I just do it out of love. I think that that’s of, you’re rejecting what Christ has offered first of all. So you’re calling Him a liar and then it is coming from at least in part, I think a place of pride. 

KEN: Well, I’m going to go, I’m going to be stronger than that. I’m going to say it is. And I’m going to say when I hear people say that, you know, I just do it because I love the Lord. I think they’re liars. 

KATHRYN: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I do too.

KEN: Don’t tell me that you, you obey God just because you love Him. Right. First of all, the Scriptures don’t say that. And Hebrews 11 says that it’s impossible to please God unless you believe He rewards you. If you don’t believe that God rewards you, then you can’t please Him. It’s very frustrating. 

KATHRYN: Well, I think Hebrews is a really good example of what does godly motivation look like because in the book of Hebrews, you’re talking about believers who are going through a very difficult time. They’re struggling. And the two primary forms of Christian motivation for persevering in times of suffering and persecution, according to the book of Hebrews, is fear of, if you don’t do it, the Lord’s going to, there will  be consequences.

KEN: “It’s a terrible thing to fall in the hands of an angry God.” And that’s talking to believers, right?

KATHRYN: And that’s to believers. And rewards. Hebrews 11, it’s all about, so it is, those are the two primary forms of motivation according, in the book of Hebrews specifically. And what are they? 

KEN: We serve Him with godly fear. 

KATHRYN: Right, not love, not gratitude, not joy, none of this feel good, feel good–I almost think of it like the Christian honeymoon phase. Yes, as a, maybe as a young believer there’s a lot of that honeymoon phase of, “I just love them,” but life’s going to happen and you are going to go through some hard stuff, and, when you do, the butterflies are not going to be as prominent. 

KEN: And that’s why the Bible gives us all these motivations. We have all these motivations. 

And in talking with other people, we often, or I often point out why do people join the military? Some of them might say, well, if you’re a really, really good soldier, you join the military because you love your country. Well, OK. But I was in the military for a long time, and I know there’s a lot of different motivations for people being in the military. I joined the military, and I will tell you that my motivation was not love for my country. I love my country. I do. 

But I joined the military because I had two children that were very, very sick, and they had no medical insurance. And they said, we’ll provide you with medical insurance. So to care for my family, I joined the military. Other people joined the military because the GI Bill, they want to get an education. The challenge. You know, you’ll hear people say, I was out of shape, and I thought it would be something that would make me healthy. Or I wanted to become a part of a group. I wanted to become something bigger than myself. 

KATHRYN: I wanted to travel. 

KEN: Oh, I hear that a lot. Right. Or after 9-11. I wanted to go kill the people who did this to my neighbors, or did this to my family members. Would we look at someone like that and say, well, they don’t have the right motivation? And the answer is no. It could be a mixture of all of these things. 

KATHRYN: I was about to say, why does it have to be one? And going back to what I was trying to get at earlier, too, is that this can be a point of Christian pride. If you’re looking at someone saying, oh, my motivations are so much better than theirs, then…

KEN: And again, they’ll say it, well, he’s doing it for rewards. That’s a lousy motivation. No, that’s a great motivation. All those motivations are good. 

Well, we hope this helps, Micah. We hope this helps with anybody who’s wondering about what is our motivation for pleasing the Lord with our lives. Remember, folks? Keep grace and focus. 

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On our next episode: Some of the younger generation today is moving back toward traditional worship. Join us for that discussion, and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.