Transcript

ANNOUNCER: If a Christian is espousing the values of what is known as feminism today, are they walking in darkness? In our dark political climate, how should we think and live and pray? Hello, friend. This is Grace in Focus. Glad you’ve joined us today as we tackle this question. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society, and we have a website, FaithAlone.org. You can learn a lot about us there, and you can also find our bookstore. Grace Is Still Under Siege, is the latest book by Bob Wilkin, and you can find it there. FaithAlone.org. 

And now with today’s question and answer discussion here are Ken Yates and Kathryn Wright. 

KEN: We have a question from DT. It’s really not his name, but I can’t pronounce it, so I’m just going to use the initials. If he’s listening, he’ll know it’s his question. He has a question about feminism. He understands that anybody who believes in Jesus Christ for eternal life, they have it, they can never lose it. But what if said person is a feminist? Are they by definition walking in darkness? In other words, are they out of fellowship with the Lord? 

Obviously, the first thing we have to do is what do we mean by a feminist? Now, I think probably what he’s talking about based upon the political climate, not just in the United States, but in Europe as well, is, I picture in my mind the blue-haired woman who’s out on the street corner, hating men, hating marriage, hating every traditional value, pro-choice, pro-abortion, just anti-marriage, anti-children, on and on and on. I’m assuming that’s what DT means. 

And so if a person is a believer and they are one of these people, are they walking in darkness? Or we would say out of fellowship with the Lord. And one of the distinctions we have to make is we need to be careful if someone is a new believer. And we’re thinking here, for example, of 1 Corinthians 2 and 1 Corinthians 3, when Paul says he came to the Corinthians, and when they first believed they were carnal, but they were not out of fellowship with the Lord. They were just new believers.

KATHRYN: Let me just say, too, real quickly. You can be a man and be a feminist. Men identify as feminists. Recently, I saw a video where it was one person against 25 feminists in feminism, the feminists included men and women. So I think that’s maybe a misconception sometimes. You can identify as feminists and be a man. Yeah, I had a good friend whom she came to faith and she grew up in a home that was, leans towards those type of concepts and ideals. And it wasn’t until some time after that she realized, had looked more into the issue of pro-choice. And she didn’t think, oh, you know, abortion is perfectly fine. That was just normal. She hadn’t been told the alternative. 

KEN: And so what we have here is a woman or you rightly pointed out a man, a man could support all these things, but they just don’t know. You know, they’ve grown up in it and Paul says to the Corinthians that when they believed they were carnal, but they weren’t walking in darkness. You know, Peter says, add to your faith knowledge. And so a person—

KATHRYN: you don’t know what you you don’t know. 

KEN: Right. Every one of us, when we’re new believers are carnal. We have all kinds of messed up beliefs and we need to be taught. 

KATHRYN: And so we need to look at those people with grace and patience, that that takes time, that takes time to unlearn those things and to look at the Scriptures and have their minds transformed. And those who have been in the faith for a while, to not be judgmental and be patient with those folks because that does take time to teach. 

KEN: Yeah, and I would have to say that in our country, for example, maybe I’m just too old and I just don’t get it, but it seems to be that many, many of the younger people would fall into this category, right? Both men and women. So if they come to faith, there’s a pretty good chance that however we define feminism and even radical, what we might call radical feminism, new believers, especially if they’re young, are going to be this way and we shouldn’t be judgmental, no more than the new believer who doesn’t realize that living with his girlfriend or boyfriend before marriage is a sin. And they come to faith and they don’t know that. 

And some of these views that the feminists have, it may take a little while for them to see, well, why is it wrong? Don’t I just want what’s right for women? Don’t I just want equality for women? I mean, they could they could be thinking that way when they come to faith. 

D.T. here, I think let’s go ahead and assume a couple things. He’s talking about a woman or a man, but he specifically mentions a woman here who has been a believer for a while and has been taught, but she, okay, I know I’m getting to an extreme example here, but she rejects that, rejects the biblical morality in certain areas here, and she rejects that, is she walking in darkness? 

And I think we would have to say that if a person is been taught that they reject it, let’s say a woman’s a radical feminist when she comes to faith and she doesn’t believe in marriage. She believes in abortion. She hates men. If we’re going to define feminists that way and she’s been taught, then yes, she would be walking in darkness. We’re looking at 1 John, or she’s been told what the scriptures say, the scriptures reveal it, but she rejects that. But that would be true for any sin. 

KATHRYN: Yeah, if you’ve been shown the truth of God’s word and you’ve rejected it, well, then yeah, you’re no longer walking in the light. 

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KEN: I do think it’s important here that we define feminism. 

KATHRYN: Yeah, this is such a delicate issue, because there are things that I think we can get a little bit judgmental on this. 

For example, I’ve got a good friend, and this is such a silly example, but it’s one that comes up, where we were talking about this recently, and she’s married, she’s got children, you know, she’s a believer, and I believe one that is walking with the Lord, but she gave the example of she likes to mow the lawn, and her husband doesn’t, like she’s the one that does mows of the lawn, and that people think that she’s, you know, a feminist, or maybe not that, I don’t know if that word was used specifically, but that, oh, she’s not traditional in that way, and because she’s not quote unquote traditional, like, what do we mean by traditional? 

You know, that’s kind of a sketchy term in some sense, because sometimes our traditions are also not biblical, so when we say you’re a traditional wife, well, that can be a little bit problematic because, just because she likes to mow the lawn doesn’t mean that she’s, you know, hates men, and wants to abort, you know, her children, you know, so there’s a spectrum there, I think. Do you think it’s okay for women to vote? That used to be, you know, what is that first way? I don’t even know. Is that first way feminism? It’s like, I don’t think that women who say they want to have the right to vote are walking in the dark, so you do have to define your terms here, and it’s a tricky topic. 

KEN: Right, because I’m old enough to remember where it was almost to be a feminist if a woman worked outside of the home. And I don’t think most people would define feminism that way today, right? And so we need to define it. And then also—

KATHRYN: Which on that, let me just say, you know, this is where I’m, you know, speaking about being judgmental, I do think that there is still a, you know, could be a spirit of judgment on moms who work. One of the things that I hear a lot within my friend groups is, you know, you’ve got a mom who maybe is working because they have to, you know, in order to pay the bills or maybe they put their kid in daycare, they don’t breastfeed or something like that, and they’ll be labeled feminists and they’re judged very strongly for that, that’s, I just think is ridiculous.

KEN: Yeah, that’s another place we need to be careful. I think by definition, if you’re a single mother, you’re going to be labeled a feminist by people, and I would say, no. I, this is Ken Yates talking, I refuse to be judgmental on someone like that. 

KATHRYN: Or just in our economy right now, there’s parents who just see how they both, both parents have to work in order to pay the bills. 

KEN: Right. And, and certainly that’s the case, I say, with a, with a single mom, she has no choice. Yeah. And so we got to be careful on that. And then also, I think this bleeds over into the church, like the role of women in the church. There are a wide spectrum of beliefs, even among Christians, and I’m talking about conservative Christians, about what a woman can do in the church, or even in parachurch organizations. 

Right. I mean, is a person a feminist if she assumes some role in the church. For example, if she teaches Sunday school, and if so, what age, you know, what age can she teach Sunday school? Can she ever teach men Sunday school? If you’re in a parachurch organization, that’s not even the church. But, you know, I’ve, through the years, I’ve heard all kinds of people say that women shouldn’t assume these roles. 

You know, I remember reading years ago of a woman by the name of Barber, who discipled Watchman Nee in China. I am sure that she really got it from people in her generation, you know, and so as we define the role of a woman in church, I don’t have any problem at all with what Barber did with Watchman Nee in China. But is that assuming the position of a man there? And I would say no, because it’s not the church. She’s not being an elder. She’s not a leader in the church. She’s doing that. 

And we even get that in GES, for example, with women doing breakout sessions at our national conferences and stuff. And when we do conferences at churches, some churches say conferences, women can speak, and some say they can’t. So, again, we need to be very, very careful. 

But I think DT, going back to his original question, what he’s saying is these women that we would call radical feminists, are they walking in darkness? And it seems like our answer is that if they’ve been taught, yes, but we need to be gracious and let these particularly younger believers have a chance to see how they’ve been influenced by the world and the culture in which they live. 

Well, thank you for the question DT. And it’s always a reminder to all of us. We need to have grace. We need to be people of the Word, but we need to be gracious where the Word allows us to see things a little bit differently. And in the meantime, for all of our listeners, keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode, a veiled gospel in 2 Corinthians 4. Please join us and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.