Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Who are the sheep and who are the goats in Matthew 25? Why are the goats called goats? What is the judgment that they receive and why? Stay tuned in the next few minutes we will talk about it here on Grace in Focus. Glad you’re joining us today, friend. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society located in North Texas. We have a website where you can find out more about us and our online seminary, Grace Evangelical Seminary. Study with us online for your MDiv degree. We’re getting ready for our fall semester coming up shortly. If you are a new student, it’s time to go through the application process and get ready to sign up for courses real soon. That’s the Grace Evangelical Seminary, find out more at faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Kathryn Wright.

BOB: Kathryn, I think you have a question. In fact it’s your own question, I think, based on the judgment of the sheep in the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. 

KATHRYN: Yeah, this has been on my mind for a few weeks now and I actually got to talk to our friend John Niemela a little bit about it at our national conference that we just had. And if you are interested, you can listen to those sessions on our YouTube channel. They’re available for free to go and check out. But I was in Matthew 25, the parable of the sheep and the goats and—

BOB: Hang on one second. Some people do call it a parable, but I think it’s an actual historical event. 

KATHRYN: So you’re right. Thank you for correcting me. I agree with you. More accurately, the account of the sheep and the goats when the Lord returns at the end of the Tribulation period. And He gathers the Gentiles that are alive at that time and they are separated, the sheep and the goats. And the conclusion to that judgment, verse 46 of chapter 25 of Matthew, the Lord says, “And these will go away into everlasting punishment”, talking about the goats, “but the righteous into eternal life.” 

And so my question was about that phrase “everlasting punishment”, specifically the idea of punishment, in that we teach at GES that unbelievers are not cast into the lake of fire because of their sins, they are cast into the lake of fire because they are not found in the book of life. How do we reconcile that with this idea of everlasting punishment in the judgment of the sheep and goats? 

Now, to be clear, we know that the judgment of the sheep and goats is not the same judgment as the Great White Throne where all unbelievers come before the Lord to receive their final judgment before being cast into the lake of fire. This is the specific judgment at the Lord’s return of those who are physically alive, but still we have this phrase “everlasting punishment”. So how, Bob, would you respond to maybe that seeming contradiction? 

BOB: Well, it’s important to recognize that sheep, who are the Gentile believers who survived and the goats, who are the unbelieving Gentile believers, both are said to be the sheep or the goats because of how they treated Jesus’s brethren. Jesus’s brethren, He says, “these My brethren”, which means he seems to be pointing to Jewish believers who are there at the judgment of the sheep and the goats. All of the sheep treated the Jewish believers of the Tribulation well, and all of the goats did not. That’s a question in itself. And I think you can go to faithalone.org and check it out, but we have a number of articles on that. And we suggest that in light of Matthew 24:13, “he who endures to the end shall be saved,” that verse means that the only time in the history of mankind where 100% of the people are born again—other than the garden after Adam and Eve were born again and before they had kids—but the only other time would be at this point where every adult who survives the Tribulation who’s a believer is faithful. There are no unfaithful believers among them because they will have died. And all of the goats are going to be unfaithful because this is one of the marks of the Tribulation. Of course, most of the people present will have taken the mark of the beast and they will have a mark on their forehead or their hands.

But coming to your question, yes, their sins were paid for at the cross. That means that they will not be eternally condemned because of their sins. But that doesn’t mean they don’t reap what they sow. Paul said in Galatians 6:7, “Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, whatever a man sows that will he also reap.” And Jesus said in Matthew 16:27 that “the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will recompense each according to his works.” Everybody’s going to be judged. 

The biggest question here is, if this isn’t the Great White Throne judgment and it clearly isn’t because it’s before the Millennium, it’s right at the end of the Tribulation. How is it then that these people are told these will go away into everlasting punishment? Are they being judged before the Great White Throne judgment? 

I think there’s two views. Zane Hodges used to say this was like their arraignment and it would show there’s enough evidence to hold them and then their actual trial would be at the Great White Throne. But the other option is that their guilty verdict is given here, but their sentencing is not until they get to the Great White Throne judgment because the Lord has not yet looked at their deeds, their good and bad deeds from the books and when He does that that’s when He will be able to determine their degree of torment in the lake of fire. 

The question really is what does it mean when it says “these will go away into everlasting punishment”? It might mean they’re going to go into the beginning of what will be eternal torment. He’s looking at ultimately when they’re cast into the lake of fire after the Great White Throne. 

ANNOUNCER: Just jumping in here to make you aware of our magazine Grace in Focus. It is a bi-monthly six issues per year 48 page magazine full color and we want you to subscribe by emailing your name and your snail mail address to GES@faithalone.org. The subscription is free. It can be accessed electronically or it can be actually physically sent to you if you live in the lower 48 United States. That’s our Grace in Focus magazine. Send your name and snail mail address to GES@faithalone.org. 

BOB: Or the other option is He’s just talking about they’re going to be tormented for a thousand years and then we will have the final verdict. This is a temporary verdict, the final verdict later. I’m kind of inclined to the view that they’re found guilty right here and right now. He has the book of life. He sees they’re not in the book of life. He says you’re going away but you’ll still have your day in court a thousand years later at the great white throne. 

KATHRYN: One of the things I hear especially maybe from the millennial younger generation when it comes to the idea of punishment for the unbeliever—again, to be clear, we’re not saying that the unbeliever is cast into the lake of fire because of their sins. The Lord paid for the sins of the whole world. The issue of the unbeliever is again that they don’t have life but even unbelievers will reap what they sow, there are the consequences. But one of the things that I hear from millennials and younger and maybe older, I don’t know, that at some point, wouldn’t they have been punished enough? If it’s two billion years later, wouldn’t they have been punished enough to then garner salvation? How would you respond to that? 

BOB: The answer is that a person who willingly rejects the gift of everlasting life is not going to get it later on. They have rejected it. Jesus said in John 5:39, “You search the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life. But these are they which testify of me”, John 5:40, “but you’re not willing to come to me that you may have life.” Well, their unwillingness to come to Jesus in faith is what condemned them. If someone is open like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 or Cornelius in Acts chapter 10 or Lydia in Acts chapter 16, in those cases, you have people who are born again. 

But to say that, okay after a billion years or two billion years, they’re now going to be given eternal life. Well, that would contradict the words of the Lord Jesus Christ because he said in John 3:18, “the one who does not believe is condemned already because he is not believing the name of the only begotten Son of God.” They stand in that unless they come to faith before they die. The Lord can’t contradict His own word.

But the other thing to keep in mind is, and I know this is kind of fanciful, but I don’t think it’s so obvious that the unbeliever would want to be annihilated, which is the way a lot of young people think. They think, well, at the end of a billion years, he’ll just annihilate him. The problem there is, I don’t think they choose that. Think of people today who have pain and suffering, which is pretty much all of us. And those people aren’t going out and saying, please annihilate me. They’re wanting to live out their life and they’re wanting to get their whole 70, 80, 90, 100 years. 

The truth is, I think the people in the lake of fire, because the torment is going to be tolerable, I think they would choose continued existence. Ultimately, a lot of people say what the unbeliever gets is what he wants. He doesn’t want to be in God’s kingdom. He wants to be separated from God’s kingdom. And so that’s what he gets. And if he’s in an environment where there are a lot of people like him or her who are people that have that same mindset, even though there’s going to be torment forever, and it’s not going to be a happy place. On the other hand, if it’s bearable torment, I don’t think they’d pick annihilation. That’s not an option. 

KATHRYN: You have a chapter in your book The Ten Most Misunderstood Words on hell. And I would recommend because I think some of the things we’re talking about here are addressed in that book. So if you’re interested, you can check that out at our website. It’s a really great resource. Also, you and Zane did a series of discussions on this passage. 

BOB: Yeah, we have a book called Tough Texts, which is a recording and then they were transcribed and made into a book. And there’s also a book called The Outer Darkness where he and I talked and we handled the three passages in Matthew that talk about the outer darkness. 

KATHRYN: Great resources. So really want to recommend that. But I do want to follow up on something you said earlier. You mentioned that the only time other than maybe the garden where it’s only faithful believers who are who are still alive. Would not Noah also be another example of that? You know, his family that that’s often used as a picture of, you know, the rapture and end times events. So yeah, I was just wondering what you think about that. 

BOB: Yeah, there were probably lots of believers on earth who were not righteous in their experience, so they died in the flood. But after all those people died, there was a short period of time where you did have eight faithful people—

KATHRYN: Who endured. They endured till the end and so they were saved. So there’s well, 

BOB: He’s called a preacher of righteousness in the New Testament. And so I think the requirement to get on the ark was more than believing, it was being righteous. But of course, at least one of his sons seems to have fallen after they got out of the ark. And so whether he later got back in his father’s good graces, we’re not told. But yeah, there wasn’t—you’re right. Let’s add that one in. 

KATHRYN: Okay, I just wondered.

BOB: Right after they got out of the ark, you had eight righteous people. 

KATHRYN: Sure. Okay. We’re agreed then.

BOB: All right. Well, very good. And Kathryn, let’s keep grace in focus. Amen. 

ANNOUNCER: Read many from our library of thousands of free magazine and journal articles online at faithalone.org/resources. That’s faithalone.org. Did you miss an episode of Grace in Focus that you really wanted to hear? Just come to faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org. We have all our past episodes right there on the site. Our team is really great about answering questions, comments and feedback. If you’ve got some, we hope to hear from you. Let me give you our email address so you can do just that. It’s radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. 

Thank you for joining us all this week on Grace in Focus. Come back and join us again Monday. Have a great weekend. Fellowship in a Bible believing church. And let’s keep grace in focus.