ANNOUNCER: How do you interpret the Bible? And what part does experience play in that? What determines a proper interpretation of Scripture? Hello, friend. Thank you for joining us. This is Grace in Focus, and it is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. We come to you each weekday right here, and our website is FaithAlone.org. Lots of information about us there. Hope you’ll go and take a look at it. Including our subscription-free magazine, it is also called Grace in Focus. It comes out six times per year, and it is a full-length, full-color magazine, and it is absolutely free. You only have to pay the postage if you live outside of the 48 contiguous United States. We want you to have it. Get signed up today at faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Sam Marr. 

SAM: This came up from a discussion that you and Dan and I were actually having in the office. The question really is, should we interpret the Scripture based on our personal experience, or should we interpret personal experience based on Scripture? And it might sound like an obvious question, but as we’re going to get into it, this is a pretty major topic. Some people are probably going to disagree with us, but it’s an important question to answer, I think. 

BOB: I think so, and it affects many different aspects of our interpretation of the Bible. Anything that we potentially have experienced can lead us to conclude, that must be true because I’ve experienced it, even without examining the Bible. 

So let’s take some examples. One example would be, we had some people at our conference one year who are missionaries in a foreign country. I found out later they were saying at a church this Sunday before our conference and on, I think, Facebook and other things that they know with certainty that demon possession and casting out demons occurs today. And do you know how they knew with certainty that that was true? 

SAM: Because they had seen it? 

BOB: Yep. Because in their experience on the mission field, they had seen somebody cast out a demon. Now, is it possible that demons do possess people today and that demon possession occurs today? Well, it is if there’s any evidence in Scripture that anybody was ever demon possessed, right? So it’s hypothetically possible because we know from the gospels and from the book of Acts, demon possession took place during the ministry of Jesus and during the early ministry of the apostles. So if you were to say demon possession still occurs today, that could be true or not true. 

But the way we determine that is not by our experience, the way we determine that is by studying the Bible. In other words, it’s interesting if you study the Bible, there are no examples of demon possession in the Old Testament. There are no examples of demon possession before the ministry of Jesus began. There are no examples, no explanation of how to cast out demons in the epistles or anywhere in the New Testament. Wouldn’t you think if demon possession was going to be an ongoing problem that the Lord would give us at least a few sentences about here’s how you deal with it? 

SAM: It would have been nice, yeah. 

BOB: And there’s nothing on that. My response would be, okay, if you claim you’ve seen demon possession, now go to the Scriptures and study the Scriptures. And if you find the Scriptures are inconsistent with that, then you need to realize you’ve been duped. Sam, have you ever seen some of these people who are supposed to be people who can do surgery without cutting into people, they just reach their hands into the people, pull out the disease, liver, or kidney, or ever seen those? 

SAM: Yeah, or like the kind of magic chiropractors where they can hold their hands over you and suddenly pain goes away. Because all those paralyzed, they can heal their paralysis, things like that. 

BOB: But the ones I’m talking about, lots of people don’t realize that what they do is they have some chicken liver or chicken spleen or something, and they somehow with sleight of hand pull that out, and it looks like it’s coming right out of the chest of a person that was never cut into. But it’s been shown that’s fake. You would say, well, but in my experience, I saw it. Well, if you claim you’ve seen someone, the demon was cast out of them, you have so many questions to ask. How do you know this wasn’t a setup? 

But even if it wasn’t a setup, to say that demon possession, I know with certainty, occurs today and casting out demons. I know with certainty it occurs today because I’ve seen it is backwards. But what we ought to do is say, I go to the Scriptures, I see what the Scriptures say. So we should interpret experience based on Scripture. We shouldn’t interpret Scripture based on experience. 

Let me give you another example. I don’t know how many people in Christianity have spoken in tongues, but it’s a lot. Many, if not most of those people say, I know tongue speaking is for today because I’ve done it. But what they don’t do is go to the Scriptures and see what the Scriptures have to say about tongue speaking. 

There was a book, I think it was called Toward a Charismatic Reality, by a pastor who believed that tongue speaking was for today, and he had people speaking tongues in his church. But he also knew that Paul says that if you’re going to have tongue speakers, you have to interpret. He was trying to get other people in his church to interpret. And he only had one other person and that person would rarely do it. So he ended up having to interpret every time anybody spoke in tongues. 

And the problem with it was he really wasn’t opening his mind up and God was speaking through him. Instead, he was kind of thinking, what can I say that is biblically sound? In other words, I have no idea what this person is saying. I’m just going to say something biblically sound. 

ANNOUNCER: The Grace Evangelical Society’s recently published Old Testament Commentary, Volume One is now available. Find it at faithalone.org/store. It’s where you can also find Bob Wilkin’s latest book, The Gospel is Still Under Siege, as well as many other titles by Grace Evangelical Society authors. Please come by and have a look today. You’ll find the GES store at our website, faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org/store. Now back to today’s topic.

BOB: That pastor, by the way, because he couldn’t get anybody to interpret, and because he didn’t believe he had the gift of interpretation, he stopped tongue speaking in his church. My response would be, if you look at tongue speaking, tongue speaking in the New Testament were actual languages, and if you study what people call tongues today and they’ve done studies of this, it’s just gibberish. It’s just a bunch of syllables repeated together that really make no sense and a linguist can study this and show that it’s just gibberish. 

SAM: And the problem where it arises from, it’s either a tradition, or something someone’s taught in their church, or something someone’s encouraged to do. I mean, I’ve heard people talk about how every Christian should be able to speak in tongues, and they almost treat it like a sign of a true believer or something. 

BOB: Sometimes they do. 

SAM: Sometimes they do. But the problem is they have had an experience where maybe they saw someone speaking tongues, maybe they felt some weird kind of urge, and it made them speak in tongues, whatever. I don’t even want to argue that part of it. But the problem is that experience now led them to believe, okay, this is what Christians are about. This is what Christians do, when, if they had read Scripture first, he gives pretty clear instructions on how churches are supposed to handle this. And if they would read that, they would see that none of the modern churches. I mean, the church you gave an example would probably be the best one, where at least he was trying to interpret, but most places don’t even bother with that. It’s just that active, the speaking. There’s nothing biblical about it. It’s just a thing that people do and they keep doing because they feel like it’s the right thing to do. 

BOB: All right, let’s bring this to the most important issue. That is, my testimony. Have you ever heard people that say, well, I know that you don’t have to believe that by faith in Jesus, you have everlasting life that can never be lost, because when I was born again, I didn’t believe that I was, you ever heard that before? And what they’re saying is, I’ve had an experience, and my experience tells me what the saving message is. They don’t go to John 3:16 and say, how does my experience match up to John 3:16? If they did, they would say, well, whatever happened when I gave my life to Christ or prayed the prayer or walked the aisle or invited Jesus into my heart, whatever happened there, I wasn’t born again there because I didn’t believe the message that I’ll never perish and that I have everlasting life. So, oh, okay, I was born again here when I was in college and I came to believe that by faith in Jesus, I had everlasting life. But a lot of people don’t do that. 

This came up at our 2006 annual conference and we had over 350 people, about 360, and we had a discussion one afternoon, and this was the issue. And about half the people, when I said, how many of you here were born again before you believed you were eternally secure? And not over half, but half the people raised their hands, about 150 or 60 raised their hands. I was shocked because what they were saying is my experience trumped Scripture. Now, they didn’t look at it that way, obviously. What they did is went to the Scriptures and then somehow found a way to make the promise of eternal life in John 3:16 or John 5:24 or 6:47, that’s the result of being born again. That’s not what we believe Jesus for. 

And there’s a lot of people who say that, but what they’re doing is they’re basing their testimony on their experience rather than basing it on Scripture, whether it’s speaking in tongues, whether it’s casting out demons, whether it’s our testimony, whether it’s the issue of whether there are prophets today, all of these things are determined by what the Scriptures teach, not by a feeling I’ve had, not by an experience I’ve had, not by something I’ve seen or heard. It’s all based on Scripture. 

So I would encourage each of us, interpret your experience in light of Scripture. Don’t interpret Scripture in light of your experience. That is, don’t impose upon Scripture a foreign meaning because you’ve had some sort of supposed experience. You may have misinterpreted your experience. I would say in the case of many people when we’re coming to their testimony, God did some work in their life when they were an unbeliever. I’m not doubting that. But that’s not when they were born again. That’s just some work of God in their life. Then later on, they got the promise of life and they were born again.

SAM: We’re going to talk about that in the next episode. We’re going to spend some more time on this issue. At what point were you born again? But yes, for this episode, if there’s one thing you take away, please interpret Scripture based on Scripture, not based on Sam’s perspective or Bob’s experience or something. It’s based on what it says, and Christ’s promise especially is based on the words Christ spoke, not a feeling I had before I even read it. 

BOB: Right. All right, well, thanks so much. And let’s all keep grace in focus. Amen. 

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On our next episode: do you know when you were born again? And does it matter? Please join us again, and in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus.