Transcript

ANNOUNCER: What is the object or the focus of believing for the gift of eternal life? What is the difference in believing for eternal life and believing that Jesus exists as God? Maybe you’ve heard different ideas about this. Let’s have a discussion about it today here on Grace in Focus. Thank you, friend, for joining us. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. We exist to proclaim and promote a focused free grace gospel. And you can learn a lot about us at our website, faithalone.org. We also produce short YouTube video content weekly. You can find them on our channel, YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. And why not consider being with us for our national annual conference coming up in May, the 18th through the 21st? If you’re a first-timer, the registration fee is waived. Any other information you’ll need, you’ll find at our website, faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates. 

BOB: Well, I’m here with the right honorable Dr. Dr. retired Lieutenant Colonel. Ken Yates who’s wearing a shirt that says eternal life matters. Yes, it does. And Ken, we’re so glad to have you here. And I think you have a question from someone named Marcia.

KEN: Yeah, Marcia asked her question here where she says she was just wondering how we make a difference between or how we would define belief or being persuaded that one has eternal life, and the belief that just acknowledges that Jesus existed, that there is a Jesus. What is the difference in those definitions? 

Right off the bat, I would say, well, what is the object of faith here? A person could believe that the man Jesus existed. And I would say, well, I don’t say, we would, it’s a fact that a person could be persuaded even that this man, what, performed many miracles, that even He died on the cross and rose from the dead, He conquered death. They could be convinced of all those things. And certainly that He existed. Many, many unbelievers, I would say probably most unbelievers, are persuaded that Jesus existed. Although there are some who say, no, we don’t think that the man ever lived, which is kind of bizarre, but there are people who say that I guess. 

But most people I would say are convinced that a man named Jesus lived in the first century and even that he was put to death by the Romans. So I’m convinced that he existed, that he lived. And then they would believe many different things about Him. Maybe what you’ll often hear is that He was a great moral teacher, right? That He went against the norm, that He challenged the religious leaders of his day. But that’s a different thing of being persuaded that he gives eternal life to everyone who believes in him for it. 

BOB: Right. Well, there was a famous book, Faith and Saving Faith. You remember that one? 

KEN: Yeah, Clark, right? 

BOB: It was written by Gordon Clark and he was a famous philosopher, but also theologian, and coming from a Calvinist perspective. And he said in the book that all faith is faith. If you believe that Jesus existed, that’s faith. If you believe Jesus is God, that’s faith. If you believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, that’s faith. And he said what distinguishes saving faith from non-saving faith is the object, not the faith. If I believe that by faith in Jesus, I’m never going to perish, but I have everlasting life, John 3:16, well then I have everlasting life. But if I believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, that doesn’t give me everlasting life. Even—now this is where it gets controversial—let’s say I believe that Jesus died in the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead on the third day. Does that guarantee I have everlasting life? 

KEN: No. And I know that sounds strange to people, but if you ask those people the vast majority of them will say, well, I don’t believe if someone only has believed in Mormon doctrine is saved. But Mormons believe that He was buried and that He rose three days later. 

BOB: And that He died in the cross. And they even believe He died for our sins. 

KEN: That’s right. And so they’re convinced, you take a devout Mormon in the military. I had Mormon chaplains that I worked for and worked with. And they would tell me all the time. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, that He was buried. And they would quote 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. They said, I’m convinced of all those things. But if you ask them, well, do you have eternal life? They would say, oh, no, no, I don’t have that. I don’t know if I’m going to be in the kingdom. Of course, they have a three-level kingdom. What, some will live on the earth, some will live in the celestial kingdom and whatever it is. So Bob’s right here that it is the objectwe’re both saying this—it is the object of the faith that you have. 

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KEN: By the way, I don’t know if we’ve ever discussed this, Bob, and I don’t want to put you on the spot. It’s been a while since I’ve read Clark’s book. What was his view of saving faith? He had a great definition of faith, but what? I’m assuming he was a Calvinist. 

BOB: He was. And I have reviewed that book. And in my review, I said fantastic discussion of the fact that faith is faith, that it’s simply being persuaded or convinced. Unfortunately, nowhere in the book does he explain what the saving proposition is. 

KEN: Well, maybe that’s why I don’t remember it’s right. 

BOB: You know, what he says is all faith is propositional. And by propositional, we mean something like that tree is an oak. That’s a proposition. That book is green, or I might say something like George Washington was the first president, or Joe Biden was the president, what, 46, I guess. And I might say Donald Trump is 47 or 45 and 47, something like that. All of those are propositions. How many do you think? How many propositions do you think they’re in the Bible, Ken? How many total would you guess?

KEN: Oh, I wouldn’t. A bunch. There’s a bunch of propositions. 

BOB: A million? 

KEN: Sure. Sure. 

BOB: Okay. So let’s say I haven’t even read half the Bible. Do I believe the propositions stated in that half of the Bible? Probably not because I haven’t even heard it. 

KEN: We haven’t heard them, right. 

BOB: Right. And so let’s say that you have a new believer and they believe a number of propositions in the Bible, one of which is whoever believes in Him will not perish, but has everlasting life. John 3:16. And they believe the attendant things related to that, that God sent His Son, both to die on the cross, John 3:14-15, and also to give everlasting life to those who believe in Him, verse 17. So you could say, yeah, you got this new believer and he believes a number of propositions. He believes that Jesus was born, but he may not have much depth in terms of the number of biblical propositions he believes. Are you with me?

KEN: Sure. 

BOB: Here’s where the issue really gets down to, what Marcia is really asking. Is mental assent good enough to be saved? In other words, if I intellectually believe that Jesus guarantees that by faith in Him, I’ll never hunger, never thirst, never die, never perish, never be cast out, I’m secure forever and I have everlasting life right now. If I’m convinced that’s true, intellectually, is that enough? Or do I also have to have some sort of commitment to Jesus? Like do I have to promise to serve Him? Do I have—some people like to use the word trust—do I have to, in addition, trust Him, whatever that means, do I have to give Him my life? You see what I’m saying? 

KEN: Sure. 

BOB: So how do we answer that? 

KEN: Well, if you’re convinced of the promise of eternal life, then you’re convinced of that and you have it. And I just want to pick up on that. This may sound weird, but if we just think about it, it’s absolutely true. A person can believe that. You mentioned all the propositions in the Bible. I can be a believer in Jesus for eternal life, and I’m convinced of that, I believe it, but I’m not convinced of other things He says. For example, “My reward is with Me to give to each one according to his works.” I can be a believer in Him and not believe that. 

BOB: In fact, most people in Christianity, whether they’re born again or not, do not believe in eternal rewards. 

KEN: Exactly. So they do not believe that proposition. They’re not convinced that that’s true. They’re not persuaded it’s true ,for a number of different reasons. Number one, they may not, they may have been taught differently. And so when they read that in the Scriptures, they go, well, I don’t believe that proposition. I’m not convinced that’s true. And where they may not even think of it consciously like that, they just may reject it. 

BOB: Oh, they may not believe, for example, that there’s going to be a Millennium. They may not believe there’s going to be a Tribulation. They may not believe there’s going to be a Rapture. But if they believe that by faith in Jesus, they have everlasting life, they’re convinced. And calling it intellectual assent is kind of a canard. It’s kind of pejorative language. It’s almost like a Christian cuss word to say intellectual assent. But if it takes more than simply assent, more than simply believing and being persuaded and convinced, then ultimately what you’re saying is John 3:16 is a lie.  And John 5:24 is a lie and Ephesians 2:8-9 is a lie. And all of the faith alone verses, the sola fide of the Reformation, that’s all a lie. Because it’s not enough to believe in him. You’ve also got to commit, surrender, you’ve got to obey. You’ve got to persevere. 

I mean, it’s not just some small minority of people within Christianity who reject the idea that simply by faith in Jesus, I have everlasting life that can never be lost. That’s most Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, most Protestants, and people in the cults. They all believe in some form of works salvation. 

KEN: You know, just a couple of days ago, I was talking to someone and they go, it’s funny how this creeps in that belief is not enough. I was talking to someone and they said, oh yeah, I believe you’re saved by faith alone and then you have to confess Jesus is Lord. And I tried to point out to this person. I said, well, you know, that’s not the same thing. If you’re convinced that you have eternal life in Him, I believe in Him, then you’ve added another step. You’re not convinced that that’s true because you say, well, I’ve got to confess that He is Lord as well. Now, having said that, a person could have believed that they were saved and were convinced that they had eternal life before that and got confused later. 

BOB: And later on, which happens a lot.

KEN: That happens an awful lot. 

BOB: Well, thank you, Marcia, for your question. I would encourage some of you to look at Zane Hodges. He has a chapter, I believe it’s in Absolutely Free: A Biblical Reply to Lordship Salvation. And he talks about faith is just that. He also has a book called The Gospel Under Siege. That is an excellent one as well. And you might look at those. And we have lots of articles at faithalone.org dealing with these issues. And I think you and I have some videos on YouTube dealing with this issue as well, Ken. 

KEN: Yes, we do. 

BOB: So if you go to YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society, you can check those out. And let’s all in the meantime, keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode: is there a difference between trusting and believing? Come back and join us again. And in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus.