Transcript

ANNOUNCER: What is positional forgiveness? And what about experiential or fellowship forgiveness? How should we think Biblically about forgiveness? We’ll have a discussion about it today. We’re glad you’re with us, friend. This is Grace in Focus, a radio broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org. We have hundreds of articles there that you can read and research. Also, a bookstore where you can get Bob Wilkin’s latest book, The Gospel Is Still Under Siege. That’s faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates. 

KEN: Welcome back to Grace and Focus. I’m Ken Yates and we’re here with Bob Wilkins and we’re talking about some of the plenary sessions that we’re hoping to deal with in our upcoming national conference, May 18th through May 21st. If you’re not signed up, go on faithalone.org and sign up for this. And this session, we’re going to talk about the session that I’ve signed up for. And I do it with fear and trembling. And as Bob and I were talking about this, we want to put a disclaimer in here. You may not agree with what we’re about to say. 

BOB: And actually, we didn’t agree with what we were about to say until about two years ago, right? 

KEN: Yeah, Bob and I and others. We’ve talked about this topic in different Zoom classes and with other believers and stuff. And so we’re going to throw it out here. 

BOB: And what is the topic? 

KEN: The topic is, does the New Testament teach positional forgiveness? And let me define that. 

BOB: Yes. I mean, yes, please define it. Not yes that it does. 

KEN: Yeah. All of us, if you’ve been an evangelical for any amount of time and you’ve done any studying at all, you’ve heard something like this: that when we believed in Jesus, all of our sins were forgiven, Past, present, and future. And that’s called positional forgiveness. 

BOB: And part of the reason people say that is because they think that is the issue in terms of getting into the kingdom. You need your sins forgiven in order to get into the kingdom. And you need all of them forgiven to get into the kingdom. 

KEN: And you’ll hear it said like this, that all of my sins were placed upon Jesus, and I received all of His righteousness. Not that I was declared righteous, but that I received His righteousness. 

BOB: Yeah, declared righteous is what was called justification. But to say that I have received forgiveness is not the same as saying I’m declared righteous. 

KEN: Or I’ve received His righteousness. And Hodges talks a little bit about this in his commentary on Romans, where he points out that when Paul says we were justified or what you just said, declared righteous, it’s a judicial announcement. It’s not, okay, I’ve been made righteous. 

BOB: That’s the Catholic view. 

KEN: Now, some people say, man, you’re slicing the baloney real thin, you’re getting into the weeds. But this really is important because, sometimes you’ll talk to lordship and Calvinist people who will say, if you receive the righteousness of Christ, not declared righteous, but if you’ve received His righteousness, then you’re going to live righteously. 

BOB: Which is essentially the Catholic view. You’re basically, there’s a lot of Protestants who think the same way, that basically you need to live righteously in order to get into the kingdom. 

KEN: Right. And you will, the Calvinists will say, you will, because you’ve been given that righteousness. 

BOB: Well, there’s two types of Calvinists. There’s the old Calvinists that speak the way you’re talking. But Tom Schreiner has written a book with Ardel Canaday called The Race Set Before Us. And in that book, he shows a picture of a runner running a race. And he says, the prize is everlasting life. And he says, if we run the race to the end, then we win the prize of everlasting life, which they also call final salvation. The new Calvinists like Schreiner and Canaday and, John Piper does the same thing. They say, when you believe in Christ, you get in it or in their case when you commit and surrender and all those things or when you get the gift of faith, which is what they believe, then at that moment, you have initial salvation, but you don’t have everlasting life yet. You have initial salvation. And then if you persevere to the end, you win final salvation. For example, John Piper famously said to a group of young people like in their teens and 20s, he says, if you don’t fight lust, you will go to hell. That’s a direct quote. If you don’t fight lust, you will go to hell. That’s a Calvinist saying that. Doesn’t sound like the Calvinism we were taught when we were in Dallas Seminary. 

KEN: And it’s so bizarre. And it’s just mumbo jumbo to say, well, you can have initial salvation, but not final salvation. It makes no sense. 

BOB: It doesn’t. I’ve also read Calvinists, you know, in the parable of four soils, they have trouble explaining how soils two and three spring up. The seed is clearly generated, has resulted in a sprout coming up. So life is there. And yet Calvinists want to say the second and third soils are not born again. 

KEN: They don’t have life. 

BOB: And so what I’ve seen some Calvinists commentators say is they have some kind of spiritual life, but it isn’t everlasting life. 

KEN: Is that what they mean by initial salvation? 

BOB: I think they means something like that. Remember, Calvinists also believe because of the second soil believes for a time and in a time of temptation, they say that’s temporary fate. Sure. So they say the unregenerate can believe for a time, even though, of course, they’re supposed to be like cadavers according their view of total depravity, but they say they can believe for time and they can even do works for a time. And so it’s only when they fall away that they reveal that—

KEN: They can have joy because of the parable, they receive the word with joy. 

BOB: So they can do that too. You know, Calvinists are kind of inconsistent, but with this idea of positional forgiveness, it’s basically the idea— 

KEN: And by the way, wouldn’t you say, Bob, that this is, even among grace people, this is the predominant view? 

BOB: Almost 99%. 

KEN: This is very common—positional forgiveness versus experiential forgiveness. 

BOB: Right. So let me say, if you don’t agree with what we’re saying here, pray about it. Search the Scriptures. When I first heard somebody say, there’s no such thing as positional forgiveness, my response is, okay, show me. This person did. He gave me a lot of things to think about. And I meditated on it and thought about it. And over the course of several months, I became convinced. 

ANNOUNCER: It’s coming, it’ll be here before you know it. What am I talking about? The Grace Evangelical Society’s National Conference 2026, May 18th through the 21st at Camp Copass, an absolutely beautiful campground in North Texas right on the lake with lots of recreation, great food, a great place to stay, wonderful fellowship, and wonderful Free Grace Bible teaching. Information and online registration now at faithalone.org/events. First timers waive registration fees. Faithalone.org/events.

BOB: When I came to faith, I was told if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you’re saved once and for all. You can never lose it. You’re saved forever. You have everlasting life that can never be lost. But I was also taught that when you believe in Christ, you’re forgiven of all your sins past, present, and future. Well, like a week or two later, when I was going through initial discipleship, I was taught 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” And I remember thinking, wait a minute, I’ve already been forgiven of all my future sins. I don’t need forgiveness. And they were saying, no, no, no, no, 1 John 1:9 clearly shows you do need it. 

KEN: As believers, we need forgiveness. 

BOB: But that’s a different kind of forgiveness, we call that fellowship or experiential forgiveness. So you have a total forgiveness that includes all your future sins and then you need ongoing forgiveness. So in this view, could a believer die unforgiven? Yes and no. They could die out of fellowship with God, but they couldn’t die unforgiven because they have positional forgiveness. 

KEN: And this is also why I think a lot of people say at the Judgment Seat of Christ, our sins won’t come up, because we’ve been positionally forgiven. 

BOB: Of course, it’s true, there’s no mention of sins in the Judgment Seat of Christ passage, but there are works and even bad works, 2 Corinthians 5:10. So we need to recognize all our works will be judged. But here’s the thing, how do people get the idea of positional. Is there any verse in the Bible that tells us He’s forgiven us all our sins?

KEN: Well, I mean, they do some, there’s a verse in Colossians that does it. 

BOB: Colossians 1 and Colossians 2, right, say He’s forgiven us all our trespasses.

KEN: Right. And then 2 Corinthians 5:20, “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” And that verse is, I think almost universally, taken to mean all of our sins are placed upon Him and then we received His righteousness. 

BOB: Yeah, which it should be understood to say, the Lamb of God took away our sins so that it wasn’t a barrier anymore. 

KEN: Right. But those are the verses that come to mind initially. 

BOB: And how do we explain the two in Colossians that say he’s forgiven us all our trespasses? 

KEN: Well, first of all, let’s go back. I’m just going to say to me, one of the reasons that got me thinking, I was like you, I’d always been told positional, experiential, there’s two kinds of forgiveness. And when I was first confronted with this, I had to think about it as well. And I realized that we’re talking out of both sides of our mouths when we say, positionally, we’re forgiven of all our sins, but we need experiential forgiveness. When you think about it, well, what does that really mean? And it doesn’t make any sense to me. Positionally, I’m forgiven, but experientially, I need forgiveness. 

BOB: So God has already forgiven me of things I’m going to do in the future. And do we do that as humans? Do we forgive our friends and loved ones before they do it? No, Biblically, we’re not commanded to forgive people in advance. And there’s no indication God does. I would say that these verses in Colossians—

KEN:  Past sins.

BOB: Yeah, He has forgiven us all the sins up to this point because we’re in fellowship with him. If I’m in fellowship with God, I’m forgiven. 

KEN: Right. And when I believe, all my past sins have been forgiven. I’m in fellowship with Him. 

BOB: that’s Acts 10:43, “whoever believes in Him receives the forgiveness of sin.”

KEN: Right. Not all future sins. 

BOB: We start the Christian life with a clean slate. That’s why we don’t tell a new believer, okay, I want you to make a list of every sin you’ve ever committed and you’re going to confess them all. We don’t do that. 

KEN: Which would be impossible. 

BOB: Which would be impossible and it would also drive them nuts. So what we do is we tell them, no, but going forward, when you recognize your sin, just tell God.

KEN: When you believe, you start in fellowship with the Lord. And when you sin in the future, you need to confess those sins to continue to walk in the light. 

BOB: And so here’s what I would challenge all of you. Stop and think, is it just these two verses in Colossians and maybe 2 Corinthians 5:20? Is that it? I don’t think any of those verses actually teach that. 

KEN: It’s awful weak. The support for positional forgiveness is extremely thin. 

BOB: You sure don’t find it. And I would encourage you to pray about it. But the truth is on a practical level, it’s hard to lay out why it’s so big, but you can talk about this at the conference. I do think in my own thinking, it has helped me, because it has helped me to say, no, I want ongoing forgiveness. That’s what I want. This positional forgiveness, I don’t need that because I have everlasting life. And I’m going to be forever with the Lord. 

KEN: And let me just close on this. Forgiveness of sins is not the same thing as receiving eternal life. 

BOB: It’s not. I think we know from 1 John 1:9 or Luke 15 with the prodigal son that it’s possible for a believer to be out of fellowship with God, if we don’t confess our sins, if we don’t walk in the light. 

Well again, Bob and I both hope that you at least think about this, even if initially you disagree with this. But remember, keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: Be sure to check out our daily blogs at faithalone.org. They are short and full of great teaching, just like what you’ve heard today. Find them at faithalone.org/resources/blog. We would like to thank all of our financial partners who help us keep this show going. All gifts are tax deductible and very much appreciated. If you’d like to find out how you can be a financial partner, visit us at faithalone.org.

On our next episode: what is the book of Romans all about? Please join us and in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus.