Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Everybody needs accountability. In the church, those who are leaders should they have more accountability or less accountability. While accountability should provide protection, our leaders and pastors sometimes protect it from accountability. This is our subject today. We’re glad you joined us on Grace in Focus. Grace in Focus is the radio broadcast and podcast arm of the Grace Evangelical Society. Find us at faithalone.org where you can learn all about us including our online seminary, GES seminary, where you can earn an Mdiv degree, and it’s free if you maintain a 3.0. That’s faithalone.org. 

And now for today’s discussion, here are Kathryn Wright and Ken Yates.

KEN: Kathryn, you have a, I guess a question would be the best way to put this from one of your recent trips overseas, and it’s a subject that gets my blood boiling, so I’ll try to be calm here because I’ve had to deal with it in the chaplaincy and also just in ministry through the years. I’m a little bit older than you and I’ve had to deal with it longer than you have. So why don’t you bring up the issue that you recently came in contact with in Uganda? 

KATHRYN: We just had a mission trip back in June to Uganda and one of the things that we face in Africa is there are a lot of charlatans, a lot of pastors that are using their positions to make money in the area and to manipulate their churches in the area unfortunately. 

And so this was a major concern with the team that I went with, especially our, the locals. There were some guys that we were working with who were helping us organize the trip. During our time there, we were specifically warned that there are going to be pastors who are seeking to try to make money off of us. And you know, it’s just one of the issues that you’re facing. It’s a lot of generational corruption, yes, in the churches in Uganda. 

So something you have to be aware of when you’re going into it. I mean, literally the first day I was there, they set us down and we had a long conversation about just the issues within the leadership at the churches in Uganda. And while we were there, we were asked about the idea of rebuking or just correcting a pastor, you know, what do you do if you have a pastor that is saying something that is wrong or, you know, unbiblical or mistreating the people, you know, a lot of, again, a lot of corruption. And I could share many horror stories, but I won’t. 

And what I found out is, and I was asked about how should we respond to it. There’s a verse in Psalm 105, where it’s speaking— 

KEN: And by the way, this is just another example of how man people just twist and scripts you’re so badly. It’s just horrible. But go ahead. 

KATHRYN: The verse will be used in Psalms 105 verse 15 where it says, do not touch my anointed ones. And the anointed in Uganda is defined as their pastors, their leaders, quote, unquote, prophets and apostles that they believe are still active today. And, and so if you as a just an average parishioner, if you will, go to your pastor and say anything to rebuke him, including by question, I was asked was in the context of there was a pastor that was committing adultery. 

And so what do you do when your pastor is in outright sin, sexual sin, you know, leadership was going to him. And his response was to quote Psalm 105, you shall not touch the Lord’s anointed, you’re not allowed to rebuke or correct a quote unquote, man of God in a leadership position in Uganda. 

Now Uganda is an honor culture. So there’s an element of that as well going in there. But yeah, that was their verse. And so how do you respond to that? How do you deal with leadership when it is clearly corrupt? And they are using a scripture like that to support the idea that you’re not allowed to correct him. 

KEN: Now, will you able to talk about the context with them when you were there of Psalm 101? 

KATHRYN: We did. I was a friend of mine was also with me, Brian Ritchie. And we did get to spend some time unpacking that in that context, the anointed there is referring to the nation of Israel,—

KEN: Which is, I mean, I know it’s funny, but it’s, I mean, I know it’s not funny, but at the same time, it’s funny. 

KATHRYN: Well, the idea of, well, what is the context? Who is the anointed? How do you define it in that passage? And it’s clearly talking about the nation of Israel and that the Lord is saying to these nations, you shouldn’t touch Israel. Because if you do, there will be consequences. 

KEN: And look how far you go. God’s promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob about this as His chosen people. And these pastors over there say, okay, if I’m committing adultery, that means you can’t say anything about it. You know, I mean, it’s just, it’s frustrating. When you hear this, the reason I say makes my blood boil, not only because of the abuse that they’re heaping upon people in a country like Uganda, like this. 

KATHRYN: By the way, it’s here too. 

KEN: Oh, sure. And that’s what I’m getting to. Yeah. Probably the parallel that we run into is when you hear people say I was called. I was called to be a pastor. 

KATHRYN: I was called to be a missionary. 

KEN: I was called to be a missionary. And there’s a couple questions. 

KATHRYN: Or you’ll hear people ask. When were you called? 

KEN: Yeah. When did you receive your calling? I remember years ago, my wife and I, we were teaching in Ukraine. And that was one of the questions they asked me after class. This was a, it was an interesting Bible college. It was a Baptist Bible college, but they believed you could lose your salvation, which after class, they asked me, the group, how did you receive your calling? In my case, they said, well, how did you receive your calling to be a chaplain, military? But in our culture, we often get it, you know, pastor. First of all, pastor is a spiritual gift. 

ANNOUNCER: Did you know that the Grace Evangelical Society offers an Mdiv degree through our online seminary and tuition is free to those who maintain a 3.0 grade average? It is a 3-year degree program and you could submit your application now to gain acceptance. Then stay apprised of our registration periods for upcoming semester terms. Program and application details can be found at GESSeminary.org. Have a look at our Mdiv degree. Become an approved workman. Find out how GESSeminary.org. 

KEN: First of all, pastor is a spiritual gift. You don’t get called. That would be like, when did you get your calling to have the gift of mercy? You know, when did you get your calling to have the gift of administration? Why is it that we say, oh, well, pastor, well, first of all, the church is to be led by elders, not the person with the gift of pastor, but put that aside for a second. Why is that gift elevated above the others? I would say it’s even though it’s not as bad as the example you gave in Uganda, it’s a source of pride. You know, I received my calling. 

KATHRYN: And it is a way to be untouchable in a sense. You can’t question me because I was called to this position. 

KEN: Yeah. And again, it’s not hopefully in our cases, it’s not as bad as the example that you just gave in Uganda, but it’s still at the root of it. Right? I’ve received my calling and it’s so ridiculous because when you hear people say, well, I received my calling and then ask them, well, how did you get that calling? And it’s so subjective. It’s so nonsensical. You know, and most of the time for that reason, it’s not asked, you know, I was asking Ukraine, but it’s interesting. For example, you know, you’ll hear people say, well, I got a call, you mentioned, to be a missionary. And I was called to this particular country. Well, how did you get that calling? 

Let me tell you the truth of the matter. Let me tell you how they got their calling. They go to the mission board and they go, hey, we want to be a missionary. You talk about a couple. And by the way, the calling is, well, normally it’s God gave me a peace. I was just overwhelmed by the peace of God. That’s how I knew. 

KATHRYN: Or, a lot of the time I’ve heard it, it’s more of there was an opportunity that opened up for them to go on the mission field or to get that pass written. And they were like, Oh, well, I wanted to do it. There was an opening. So I was called and I did it. Sometimes I hear it. And I didn’t want to do it, but there was just this opportunity. 

KEN: Yeah. I felt like I had to do it. Yeah, I, but I’ll tell you the way it really works. What happens is you have a missionary couple of people going to say, Ken, you’re so cynical, but here it is. 

So the mission board says, well, we’ve got a post there that you can go to Uganda. And so he goes home. He tells his wife, hey, the mission board says, we can go to Uganda. They ask us to pray for it and see if God’s going to call us there. And the wife says, if you go to Uganda, you’re going there by yourself. And until we leave, you’re going to be sleeping on the couch. So three days later, he calls the mission board and he goes, well, I’ve been praying about it. And I don’t have peace about this. I don’t think God is calling me to Uganda. And then a week later, they go, well, we’ve got another position. It’s in Sweden. So he goes to his wife and he goes down the mission board says, there’s a place in Sweden and the wife goes, I’ve always wanted to go to Sweden. Honey, I love you so much. So three days later, he calls the mission board. He goes, you know, I’ve been praying about it. I’ve been praying about it. And now I’ve got all this peace about it. Well, it’s calling me there. 

KATHRYN: That’s pretty cynical. 

KEN: And then it’s cynical, but it is true. It is because it’s what you were saying. Now, obviously, that’s a joke that I’m saying, but that’s the way it works. It’s where do I want to go? Where does a door open? But this idea that Gabriel comes down and whispers in your ear and gives you this calling that, you know, God’s calling you to go to this country. It’s nonsense. It’s nonsense. It is more of these opportunities present itself. I have this gift. We have the support. 

KATHRYN: The unfortunate reality is that what I often hear is people who are maybe they don’t have the resources or the family dynamic that allows them to do something in full-time ministry, they hear that and it makes them feel like, well, what’s wrong with me

KEN: Exactly. This guy’s got this supernatural call. And what I’m saying is, no, he doesn’t. That’s exactly what I’m saying. 

KATHRYN: We are all called to serve the Lord in whatever capacity and whatever situation. 

KEN: Peter says, “Make your calling and election sure.” What [unintelligible] talking about is living a godly life and reigning in the world to come. That’s your calling. 

KATHRYN: We’re all ministers. 

KEN: That’s exactly right. 

KATHRYN: We’re all to serve. 

KEN: And I know I’m joking and people say you’re cynical—this should irritate us. It is. What happens in Uganda is here. But it’s also irritating what we hear in our culture. You know, like, oh, God called me to do this. Let me pray about it. I don’t got peace. The peace comes when that’s what I want to do. And then I got this peace. 

KATHRYN: Well, I think it also feeds this idea of, well, God chooses some people to serve him, but he doesn’t choose me. No, all believers have been given spiritual gifts, like you said earlier, to serve within the body of Christ. We’re all important in that way. We all have capacity to serve our King.

KEN: And just serving. 

KATHRYN: No matter where you’re at. 

KEN: Yes. And obviously, the Lord will open and close doors. But to set there and say, okay, I got to wait till he calls me to this. Yeah. And then when I do, I have this peace and I’m so much better. 

KATHRYN: What’s that quote? I think it’s Eleanor Roosevelt. Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. 

KEN: There you go. 

KATHRYN: If anybody has ever felt inferior or like, they don’t have the same capacity as others to serve the Lord. We hope this conversation is an encouragement. 

KEN: Or if you feel superior, get off your high horse. 

KATHRYN: Really? Yeah. Stop telling people that. 

KEN: Yeah. Well, hope y’all don’t think us or me anyway too cynical. 

KATHRYN: No, we already thought that. 

KEN: But until we meet next time, remember, keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: Read many from our library of thousands of free magazine and journal articles online at faithalone.org/resources. That’s faithalone.org. Did you miss an episode of Grace in Focus that you really wanted to hear? Just come to faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org. We have all our past episodes right there on the site. Our team is really great about answering questions, comments, and feedback. If you’ve got some, we hope to hear from you. Let me give you our email address so you can do just that. It’s radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. 

Thank you for listening each day this past week. We wish you a productive weekend, including worshiping with believers in a Bible teaching church. And we look forward to seeing you next week. Until then, keep grace in focus.