ANNOUNCER: Thank you for being here today on Grace in Focus, from the Grace Evangelical Society. Kathryn Wright and Bob Wilkin started a new series yesterday about testimonies, and today we’re going to continue that, talking about the usual way to give a testimony, and then they will zero in on some of the misconceptions about giving testimonies. What kind of testimony would reflect a grace position? And where is a testimony supposed to point? Now after the discussion today, I’ll be back to tell you more about the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is www.faithalone.org. I hope you’ll go there, take a visit, and see what all is there that you might avail yourself of. Now for today’s discussion, here are Kathryn Wright and Bob Wilkin. 

BOB: Welcome back to Grace and Focus. I’m here again with Kathryn Wright and we’re talking about testimonies. You said the last time we were going to talk a little bit about standard testimonies, and this is like a dance with three steps. What are the three steps most people would say you need to have in your testimony? 

KATHRYN: Yeah, if you take any ministry class or go on a missions trip and do some training, or if you just Google how to give your testimony, what you’re going to find is the standard three-step process. The first step, you describe your life before coming to faith. So this is usually you were a drug addict, or it could be something like, I heard a guy give his testimony. He was saved when he was about 10 years old, and he said before he was saved, he would pull the pigtails of little girls. So it could be something like that, or it could be as graphic as doing drugs, or whatever. 

Step two is you talk about when you came to faith, when you were converted, and this can be very confusing. We can talk about that here in a minute, but yeah, so you talk about the moment that you were saved, and then step three is you talk about how you don’t do any of those awful things that you once did in step one, right? 

BOB: Oh, but not only don’t you pull girls hair anymore, but you’re now a pastor, or you’re now a missionary. A pregnancy crisis center, or you’re a missionary. 

KATHRYN: Now you’re super Christian, right? You love to go to church, and you want to pray all the time, and you read your Bible all the time, and your desires have changed.

BOB: Or like you told last episode about a missionary who said, before he came to Christ, he was a drug addict, then when he came to Christ, he lost all desire for drugs and hasn’t had any drugs since. 

KATHRYN: Right, but now he’s also a missionary. 

BOB: And also he’s a missionary, yeah. 

KATHRYN: So I think that’s, the people I talk to, and in our churches, I think that’s about standard. 

BOB: Okay, but now I’d give one little tweak on what you said. You said, before I came to faith in Christ, how I came to faith in Christ, after I came to faith in Christ. But a lot of people would say, before I gave my life to Christ, how I gave my life to Christ, after I gave my life. Or before I invited Jesus in my heart, how I invited Jesus’ heart, after I invite. Or it might be generic like I started to say at the beginning, before I came to Christ. And not even say what that means. And sometimes it’s before I repented, how I repented, after I repented. There’s a whole range of things that they say you need to do to be saved. 

KATHRYN: Correct. In fact, it’s really sad, but I was sitting around a table with some folks a few years ago, and testimonies came up just organically, and three gentlemen gave their testimonies. And one of them said, when he got to step two, he talked about how it was in the middle of the night, and he found a church, and he went up to the altar and he kneeled before the altar. That was his story. Then the next guy told his, and he gave something about a Lord’s Prayer, saying the sinner’s prayer, and that was his step two. And then the third guy said something about surrendering his life. Three different testimonies, three completely different stories, responses. 

BOB: And did they recognize when they were hearing this that they were saying three different things? 

KATHRYN: No. And that’s what’s so shocking is that they don’t see the inconsistencies. And I would like to suggest, I think that’s really common. 

BOB: Yeah, however, there is something in common between kneeling prayer and surrender, sinner’s prayer, and that all of them tend to imply lordship salvation. 

KATHRYN: Yes. And that’s my main point is that when you look at this quote, standard testimony, what you are seeing is reformed theology boiled down into a testimony format. It’s rooted in lordship thinking, that I need to make him Lord, and so therefore I once did these horrible things, and now I don’t. And then something in the middle there about I’m a dirty rotten sinner, and I have to kneel and pray and repent and confess and make him Lord. 

BOB: And now I’ve got a kind of a spin on this that I think we need to get into. And that is in Free Grace circles, there are some people who say before I came to Christ or they may say before I accepted Christ or before I received Christ, I was like this, here’s how I accepted Christ to receive Christ. And then step three is here’s how I got assurance of my salvation. And so step three isn’t, oh, now I’m this wonderful person, but step three is five years later, three years later, six months later, ten years later, whatever, then I knew I was saved. But before then, I was thinking I might lose it. I was thinking I had to persevere to keep it. 

So there are people within the Free Grace camp who would say, the way I know I’m born again today is because I believe the promise. But the way I first knew I was saved is because my life changed. In fact, I remember meeting with one of the people from the conference who actually was a plenary speaker at our conference. And he spoke a month later in another conference, arguing that assurance wasn’t of the essence of saving faith. And I heard that message on tape and he said during the Q and A time that he was born again five years before he believed he was eternally secure. So I made an appointment with him and met with him later that year. And I said, tell me, how did you know you were born again five years before you were sure you were secure? 

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BOB: And I said, tell me, how did you know you were born again five years before you were sure you were secure? And he said, my life drastically changed. He said, before this time I swore like a sailor. And at the moment I accepted Christ, I stopped that and he said before that I had no interest in the Bible. And at that moment I gained a voracious appetite for the Bible. His view was for the first five years of his Christian life, he knew he was born again because of his life change. Now, of course, he didn’t know he was secure, but he knew he had a good start. And then once he came to believe the promise, now his assurance shifted to the promise of life. I find that real bizarre. 

KATHRYN: It’s very bizarre. I mean, there’s so many moral people who never cuss. Or there’s a lot of unbelievers who study the Bible every day. 

BOB: I was a self righteous Pharisee before I came to faith. So I mean, I didn’t cuss, I didn’t smoke. I was super religious and I was like a modern Pharisee. 

KATHRYN: Well, and that I have actually heard your testimony. I love to hear you give it. And one of the things that I was going to talk about was that concept that so often testimonies are given as an evangelistic tool. We’re trained to share our testimonies when we’re evangelizing to unbelievers. If you use that standard testimony of, I was living this depraved life and now I’ve changed, but you’re evangelizing to someone like you, that’s meaningless. 

BOB: That would absolutely turn me off. Because what I would say is that person was so bad, they needed to clean up their life before they could be saved. And unless they say that, now, if they said, I was living this drug addict life, etc. But then I stopped doing it. I cleaned up my life and then I was born again. I’d say fine. But if they said, I was leading this depraved life and then suddenly I gave my life to Christ or except to Christ and then automatically it stopped. I’d go, no wait a minute, in my view, you had to be righteous before you could be saved. If you were walking in sin, you weren’t ready to be born again. And the problem is when you look at a verse like John 3:16, there’s nothing in John 3:16 about Nicodemus, what happened before I shared this with you? Or Nicodemus, what’s going to happen after I share this with you? 

The whole point is, if you believe in Jesus, then you’re never going to perish. You have everlasting life. I’ve used a modified form of this before where I suggest something like before I believed in Christ for everlasting life, this is what I believe. 

KATHRYN: Yes, that’s exactly what I was going to suggest. 

BOB: And then this is how I came to believe the promise of eternal life. And since then, this is how continuing to believe that promise has provided ongoing assurance and comfort that empowers me. It doesn’t guarantee I’m going to live a godly life, but it’s motivated me to tell others. 

KATHRYN: Right. The other passage that comes to my mind is Matthew 7, when the Lord’s talking about when the unbelievers stand before him at the Great White Throne. And what do they do? Yeah, they point to their work to their works. That’s their testimony, right? The unbelievers testimony is, Hey, look, we changed. We had all these great things. We were prophesying in your name, and we were casting out demons. We were doing all kinds of great things. I find it kind of ironic and sad that so often what we do is we also sound like them. 

BOB: That’s a good point, Matthew 7:21-23. And I remember an interesting story, Zane Hodges was on a plane one time, sitting next to someone, and they got to talking. And so the person said, well, what you’re saying is just easy believeism, and it’s contradicted by Matthew 7:21-23. And Zane said, Oh, really? He said, well, let’s take a look at it. So Zane takes him over there, and he pointed to the verse, and he said, so what do these people think why they should get into the kingdom? And he said, well, because of their works. And he said, so what was their problem? And the guy said they didn’t have enough works. And Zane said, no, that’s absolutely not what Jesus is saying. What He’s saying is their problem is they’re thinking about their works instead of faith in Him. 

KATHRYN: Right. And that’s basically what I’m trying to argue about these standard testimonies is that what we end up doing so often is we’re pointing to ourselves and our lifestyles, rather than pointing people to Christ. And saying, this is what you need to understand. He’s offering you this gift of eternal life by faith alone. Do you believe that.

BOB: Yeah. So instead of pointing people to Christ, we’re ultimately in a sense pointing them to ourselves. 

KATHRYN: Yeah, that’s exactly what we’re doing, yes. But in our next episode, what I think is a thing to just keep in mind is what are some of the objections that people will have about what we’re saying? And I think a lot of people look to the apostle Paul as their standard. So how would we answer that question? Isn’t that what Paul does when he gives his testimony? Doesn’t he give this before, middle, after depiction? 

BOB: Well, we’ll see. Hang with us while we keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: Thank you both for that great discussion. Would you be interested in some free ebooks on topics you hear on this program? Well, if you are, you need to come visit us at faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org. On the site, we’ve got all kinds of free materials. But one of our popular options is our free ebooks on a range of subjects. They’re designed to help you mature and grow in your understanding of the faith and scripture. So come visit us at faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org. We are so thankful for our financial partners who keep us on the air. Every gift is tax deductible and very much appreciated. If you’d like to find out how you can give, go to faithalone.org. Would you like to have a chat with Dr. Bob or one of the guests here on the program? Let me tell you how to reach out to the team. You can get us on our email address, which is radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. 

Next time on Grace in Focus: do you have an anchor verse for your testimony? And does your testimony mainly talk about your experience? Or does it mainly talk about Christ? Some challenges for us when next we meet. I hope you’ll join us. This is the Grace Evangelical Society, reminding you to always keep grace in focus.