ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Grace in Focus. We are so glad that you’re with us as today we finish up a series we’ve been doing about testimonies. Kathryn Wright and Bob Wilkin have been presenting this, and today they want to just give a summary and a conclusion to remind us about what is really important when we are giving our testimony. Hello, friend. Thank you for joining us today. This is Grace in Focus, a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org. Please go there to find out more about us. We have hundreds of articles there for you to read and research, and we have an online seminary, Grace Evangelical Theological Seminary, where you can earn an MDiv degree. We are right now in the application and registration windows for the fall semester. Applicants who are accepted can receive and maintain full scholarships because of our generous donors. So get on our website and get your application approved today. If you want to study with us in the fall, find out details at faithalone.org. 

Now let’s get on with our discussion for today. Here are Bob and Kathryn. 

BOB: And Kathryn, I thought we’d try to wrap up our discussion of testimonies. I think you had kind of a summary. 

KATHRYN: Well, to kind of bring it full circle, we started this series talking about my friend and how she was concerned for her daughter, in that her daughter didn’t have a big enough testimony. I hope that through this conversation, what we’ve pointed out is that the believer needs to understand that they can never lose their salvation, that the moment they believe in Jesus for eternal life that is eternal, it can never be lost. With the typical testimony, so often we’re pointing to our works as our source of assurance. That’s a problem because our works will always foster doubt and will rob people of their assurance. 

But if I could kind of draw another issue out here is that not only do these testimonies often point to the works for the source of assurance, rather than Christ, it’s even a little bit more insidious, I think than that, in that we also are pointing to our testimonies as our source of assurance. We could take it a step further. It’s not just the works, but it’s the testimony, so my story of my friend, she’s concerned because her daughter’s testimony isn’t big enough, so the source of assurance there is in the testimony itself, that it’s too small. 

I think that is ultimately what’s happening a lot, is people are looking for an experience or this big moment, which we even talked about the date, people really emphasize the date, and so it’s not just that they’re looking for this external change, but they’re looking for a moment because they want to be able to say, ah, that was it, rather than pointing to Christ, and I think that ultimately needs to be refocused. We need to focus what it is that our source of assurance, where it really truly is, and it’s not in ourselves or a moment or a change or any of these things, it’s in the promise of Christ. 

BOB: Yeah, I really like that. You’re pointing out that the traditional one, two, three approach to testimonies where before I came to Christ, this is how my works looked, when I came to Christ, well, this is what I was anticipating doing the rest of my life, and since then, here’s what my works look like. Correct. The testimony that you’re suggesting is, okay, before I came to Christ, I believed this, and when I came to faith in Christ, I believed that simply by faith in Him, I have everlasting life, and your part three is what persuaded me, right, 

KATHRYN: It was the evidence, what’s the evidence, and I have a quote here, it’s a sad quote, okay, this is a sad example, we talked about hitting the hornet’s nest, I think I might be doing it again with this example, but I think it shows where the problem lies. So this is a quote from Fannie Crosby, do you know the hymn writer? 

BOB: Right, right, she wrote five thousand. 

KATHRYN: She wrote like all of them. If you grew up in a Baptist church, I’m sure you know “Blessed Assurance,” which is one of my favorites. She’s an incredible writer, but she gave her testimony in a biography. This is what she said, she was going to revival meetings, there was a revival going on and she was going, and she said, “I sought peace,” this is her speaking, “I could not find the joy I craved until one evening, November 20, 1850, I arose and went forward alone, after praying the congregation began to sing the old hymn, “Alas, and Did My Savior Bleed,” they came to the last stanza of it,” and then she said, “I surrendered myself to the Savior, and my very soul was flooded with celestial light, I sprang to my feet shouting, hallelujah.” 

The reason I give this example is we’re seeing both of the issues as I look at testimonies. The first one is she says that she went forward and she surrendered herself. So at no point does she talk about the gift of eternal life, at no point does she talk about assurance, at no point does she talk about Christ giving her this life, it’s she’s giving her life, right? It’s I’m surrendering my life to Him, not He’s giving His life to me.

BOB: That’s good, I mean that’s bad, but,

KATHRYN: And so that’s problem number one. It’s bad, but that’s the distinction we want to make. And then the other thing that I think is maybe we haven’t talked about as much or as clearly which is why I want to emphasize it here is that she talks about her soul being flooded with the celestial light, and that sounds so ethereal and beautiful, and it’s kind of this, but it’s so abstract, and so if you’re speaking to an unbeliever and you’re pointing to some sort of experience like that, which is very common in these testimonies, how does an unbeliever achieve that? How does an unbeliever say, okay, I want to be flooded with celestial light, they don’t, that’s so abstract that it becomes meaningless, and it becomes like this constant, unfulfilled goal, that they can’t conjure up, right? They can’t make this experience happen for themselves, and so not only do testimonies like this represent an issue when it’s talking about the works and surrendering and this life change, but on the other side of that spectrum, it’s a problem because we’re pointing people to an experience rather than Christ as well. 

BOB: Right, now hopefully Fannie Crosby subsequent to this point right came to faith, and her hymn blessed assurance seemingly would suggest that unless her assurance was based on a feeling, but I remember Dr. Norm Geisler, I only had him for one class at Dallas Seminary, but had him for a class on apologetics, the defense of the faith, he made the comment, you know the song we sing about, you ask me how I know He lives, He lives within my heart? He said basically that’s heresy, the Buddhist will tell you they know Buddhism is true because they’ve had an experience, and the Mormon will tell you that Mormonism is true because they’ve had the burning in the bosom right, they’ve had an experience, and he said pretty much every religion in the world promises a feeling. 

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BOB: He said that line should say, you ask me how I know He lives, the Bible tells me so, and the same thing is true with Fanny Crosby’s testimony. It should have been, I recognized at that point, Jesus guaranteed me everlasting life simply by faith in Him, and I had joy when I realized I was secure forever. There’s nothing wrong with the joy, but the joy has to be linked to truth, and especially the surrender, there’s nothing wrong with surrendering to Jesus either, but that’s really a discipleship issue. Although, aan unbeliever can surrender to Jesus and then later come to faith. But it’s sad, I think when people’s testimony, sin around works or feelings, when she says I surrendered, it’s almost like a pledge to do works. 

KATHRYN: Correct. Really, I think it’s kind of an interesting study, because this is an 1850, and we look at churches today, and we see a very similar setup because she’s talking about going to church, and the music is playing, and it’s a great song, and she goes forward, and it’s in the third line of that stanza, and then it’s just this emotional build-up, and I think we see a very similar scenario in a lot of our churches today where we put people in this emotional situation where they are basing their salvation ultimately on that emotional experience, rather than the truth of what Scriptures are saying, and we need to be very careful with that, because our emotions are deceptive. 

BOB: Yeah, we had a booklet in Campus Crusades for Christ, how a person could be sure. It was a confusing booklet because it basically when you invite Jesus into your heart, well, then you should be certain that He’s there and He’s never leaving, and so you can rejoice in that and thank God for that. So the booklet said, let’s say you’ve done this in the past, but you’re having doubts, go ahead and do this one last time, but this one is serious now, I’m really inviting Him in. And the problem with this approach is the next time they lack assurance, they do it again. 

KATHRYN: I was about to say rededications, right? We hear this all the time, or I got saved again, or, you know, I had to get baptized again, because I wasn’t truly saved the first time I did it, and so people have been baptized 15 times. Literally, I mean, this happens. It’s heartbreaking. And so, yes, it impacts people severely. That’s why I think this conversation’s important. I also just wanted to talk about, real briefly, the idea of children. I think a lot of our listeners, at least I hope, you know, are parents, and that they’re raising kids, and they are an example going back to the story of my friend. As parents, they have such a great opportunity to exemplify assurance, you know, to say, no, if you believe this, you have it, and I don’t worry, even if you fail, even if, because your child’s going to fail. And I think as parents, we really have an opportunity to be an example for those kids and being confident that, hey, this is what the Lord has promised and we’re sure, and you can be sure too. 

I think that what’s funny to me is, you know, in the passage in Matthew 19, when children come to the Lord, and the disciples rebuke and say, get away, go away, we don’t want you here. And the Lord says, no, I want the children here. I think sometimes we do the exact same thing, and I want to point out, it’s the disciples who are doing this. It’s believers who are diminishing the children. Don’t we do that in our churches when it comes to testimonies about who we point to as like the best example. We go to the adult in the big stories, in the celestial light, or, you know, these big moments, rather than saying, no, let’s look to children and show that it really is just by simple faith. And they are our example, and those are the ones that the preference of our Savior. Abraham’s testimony can be summed up in one verse, he believed, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. That’s all it’s necessary. 

BOB: Lots of testimonies, they’re looking for the big testimony, right? They do have a big testimony, but what it is, it’s a big me and a little God. But the other kind of testimony is a little me and a big God. Really, it’s not about me at all. It’s just about God and the promise He made and that He’s trustworthy, and all I’m doing is believing the promise. And so in this one, who’s big? Is it God that’s big or is it me that’s big? And when you point at your works, it ultimately sounds like you’re saying, this is something I did because God doesn’t force us to do these works. 

What we need to recognize, it’s not about our sins. It’s not about our righteousness. It’s not about comparing our good deeds and bad deeds. It’s not about comparing ourselves, not even comparing ourselves with Jesus. Only in the sense that we recognize we fall short of the glory of God and that only by faith in Christ do we have everlasting life. 

Well, we better wrap up. Thank you, Kathryn. This is great stuff. And I’d encourage all of you to get your testimony clear. Point to Jesus. Don’t point to yourself. Point to His promise of life. And whatever you do, keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode: Was Jonah really swallowed by a whale? We hope to see you and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.