Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Grace in Focus, as today we look at a question about discipleship. Perhaps it seems that Jesus presented discipleship as an all-or-nothing deal. Or are there degrees of discipleship? Let’s think about this today. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. We are coming to you from our offices in North Texas. We would love for you to know more about us and you can do so at faithalone.org. There you can learn about our conference ministry and view hundreds of articles available to you there. There is also a bookstore and Bob Wilkin’s latest book The Gospel Is Still Under Siege is available. Find it all at faithalone.org. 

Now with today’s question and answer discussion here are Bob Wilkin and Kathryn Wright. 

BOB: We have a question here, Kathryn from WB, WB asks about discipleship. He thinks discipleship may be all-or-nothing. Here’s what he says, “It seems like Jesus posits discipleship as an all-or-nothing deal. As if the way of discipleship is not better or worse, but all in or not at all a disciple.” And he cites a verse like Luke 9:62 where Jesus said, “No one having put his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.” And he also cites Luke 14 where a man is called to count the cost of following Christ. So what would we say about that? Is discipleship all-or-nothing? Or is it possible that there are better disciples? And lesser disciples, but they’re both disciples. 

KATHRYN: I would argue for the latter that there’s degrees of faithfulness and that we see this in the Scriptures. For example, in the Parable of the Four Soils, an example of three believers, three seeds that go down and spring up, they have life, but there are degrees of maturity there. Specifically, I think of the third soil that goes down and then springs up and is choked by the vines. It says that it produces fruit, but it just doesn’t produce fruit to maturity. And you compare that to the fourth soil that is the good soil that has the crop 100 fold. And so we see in Scriptures that there are degrees of productivity within believers. Also, we mentioned this in our last episode. You know, the parables show this as well that there will be degrees of those who reign with the Lord. And so there are degrees of productivity in that sense too. 

BOB: When you think of the Parable of the Four Soils, I like to point people to Luke 8, which is where Jesus gives us the interpretation. In Luke 8:11-15. And the first soil is the one where Satan snatches away the seed “lest they should believe and be saved.” Then the second soil says, “believe for a time and in time of temptation fell away.” So I think WB is right that the second person stops being a disciple because he falls away. But you’re correct that the third soil—we’re not told that either the third or fourth soil believed, but we have to understand that each soil is better than the previous one. So the third one believes, but it says it’s got thorns and weeds around it. And it says, “cares riches and the pleasures of life” choked out its effectiveness. So it brought forth fruit, but not mature fruit, but the fourth soil, as you say, brought forth the mature fruit. So I would say the Parable of the Four Soils, as you’ve said, clearly shows there’s degrees of discipleship. And that’s even true in something like the Parable of the Minas, right? You’ve got one person goes from one to ten, well done, good servant. You’ve been faithful. It’ll have authority over ten cities that’s Luke 19:17. Then in Luke 19:19, the guy goes from one to five and he says, you also be over five cities. Well, he didn’t stop being a disciple, but he was only half as productive as the first guy. And he could have been fully productive. 

KATHRYN: One of our friends for GES, Marcia Hornok’s view of the four soils is that it’s not just the saving message, but that it’s the teaching, so the word that’s being given to disciples, which I don’t know your view on that, Bob. But I do think there’s something about, as believers, we listen to God’s word and that you’re following Him. You’re a student of His word, but that there’s some things that maybe you don’t agree with at first, or that there’s a process there, or maybe there’s things that you reject. 

Peter, for example, he was a disciple of the Lord. He was following Him, but then when the Lord started teaching on his death and resurrection, Peter said, nope. I ain’t listening to that. That did not track, that did not compute. I think we see examples of believers who are absolutely disciples. They’re following the Lord, but they reject some of the teachings, or maybe they reject at one point, but then later change their mind. And so, yeah, there’s degrees in our understanding and the sanctification process as well. And we do see that throughout Scriptures. It’s not all-or-nothing for anyone. 

BOB: And I would say that when we think about the passage in Luke 9:62, “No one having put his hand to the plow and turning back is fit for the kingdom of God”, that’s talking about fit to rule and reign with Christ. And the person who stops being a disciple is not fit to rule and reign, but can’t a person plow to different degrees of hardiness or effectiveness? Parable of the Minas is the first guy goes from one to ten. He’s doing a lot more sowing and reaping than the second guy, because in the minas, all of the servants have the same opportunity. Unlike the Parable of the Talents where you’ve got a five talent guy, a two talent guy and a one talent guy, he’s now looking at a bunch of servants that have the same opportunity, but they come up with a different result. 

ANNOUNCER: You’re invited to subscribe to the Grace Evangelical Society’s YouTube channel. You will find our Monday, Wednesday and Friday videos there enlightening and encouraging and even probably humorous at times if you like Bob Wilkin’s humor. Indeed you will get Biblical truth about Free Grace themes, like faith alone for eternal salvation and why the Grace Evangelical Society is zero-point Calvinistic. We come your way three times a week at the Grace Evangelical YouTube channel. Check it out and tell a friend about the Grace Evangelical Society.

KATHRYN: I think the reality is is that we all could be more productive. 

BOB: Amen. 

KATHRYN: If we’re being honest, I think that we will all stand before the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ and to some measure think and realize that we could have done more. We all could have been more faithful in areas. The idea there in 1 Corinthians 3, for example, that when Paul talks about how it goes through that testing, when the works are burned up, and yet the believer will be saved, the salvation there is not the salvation of eternal life, but that believers who have been faithful, even though we will all experience some things that are burned up, but that those who have built into the church and who have served the Lord will still experience a deliverance at the Judgment Seat of Christ. And so that there’s always going to be suffering of loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ, even for the most faithful. 

BOB: I remember talking to Zane Hodges and he pointed out that he thought the verb save, sozo, in 1 Corinthians 5:5 referred to being spiritually healthy at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I think the same thing works here in 3:15 that believers who are faithfully building up the church are going to be healthy at the Judgment Seat of Christ, even though some of the stuff that we did is going to burn up. 

KATHRYN: Yeah. I mean, you think about Peter. He denied the Lord. He wouldn’t eat with the Gentile believers and Paul had to rebuke him. We see him fail in areas, and yet we also know he’s going to rule in the kingdom to come. So absolutely, all of us have areas where we were not always faithful. There’s degrees of faithfulness. This all-or-nothing mentality, I think also can be mentally pretty damaging to a believer, because if we’re being honest, the point being that none of us are always 100% all in, all the time. If that’s how you see discipleship and sanctification, it’s going to be a pretty defeatist at what, you’re going to feel like you’re always failing. 

BOB: Yes. And I have a question for you, Kathryn, because WB brought up Luke 14 and Luke 14 talks about counting the cost of someone’s going to be following the Lord. They need to count the costs of following the Lord. So my question is, does counting the costs suggest that discipleship is all-or-nothing or maybe not? 

KATHRYN: There is an element of, if you are out of fellowship with him, if you are living in outright rebellion, then obviously there is that all-or-nothing in that regard. But counting the cost, what it costs you and what it costs me will look different. I think there’s an element of that as well. How do you even know? I mean, maybe this is a question for you. How do you know what all it’s going to cost you at the beginning of your life? 

BOB: No, that’s a good point. I don’t think we do, but I think the point is, remember the Lord says if anyone comes after me, he’s going to be rejected by the world? He’s going to suffer persecution and the apostle Paul said the same thing. If anyone desires to live a godly life, he’s going to experience suffering. The cost to discipleship is some level of suffering. But it doesn’t mean that the level of suffering is the same, depending on whether we’re fully following Christ or just halfheartedly following Christ. 

It seems to me the more actively we follow Christ, the more the cost is. But the second soil, the one who in time of temptation fell away, well, he stops paying the price. But the third soil is still paying the price. He’s still counting the cost, but he’s allowing cares, riches, and the pleasures of life to make him less effective. So I don’t think counting the cost means it’s all-or-nothing. I think the question is, am I willing to stand up for Christ and suffer the consequences? 

KATHRYN: At the end of Luke 14, we’re dealing with a context where the Lord has been repeatedly dealing with the doctrine of rewards all the way back from the beginning of the chapter where he’s talking about who’s going to have the best seat in the house. 14:14, He specifically talks about being repaid in the resurrection. So it’s clearly talking about, do you want to be somebody who is in that honored seat in the kingdom to come? Do you want to be somebody who’s part of my inner circle? And that is costly. It does require servanthood. And that’s the context of the entire chapter. 

BOB: That’s good. Now, one final point I would make is earlier you talked about the fact that sometimes even we who are disciples reject what the Lord says. And I would just throw out, I think it’s not that the disciple is willfully rejecting. It’s due to ignorance. And oftentimes it’s due to tradition. We come out of a tradition. It made it hard for Peter to accept that the Messiah was going to die on the cross. It made it hard for Peter to start eating with the Gentiles. His tradition said, don’t eat bacon. Our tradition sometimes makes it harder for us to see the plain meaning of Scripture. That’s why I think it’s so important for all of us to be prayerful as we study the Word of God because ultimately we’re not going to get the Scriptures if God doesn’t open the Scriptures up to us. 

KATHRYN: I like that clarification that it’s not willful just rejection. I think to your point about traditions, one of the areas we see this the most is with the doctrine of rewards. A lot of believers struggle with the doctrine of rewards because it’s so contradictory to our traditions and so I think that’s an area where, are we willing to submit to what the Scriptures have to say to us and have our minds transformed, Romans 12? 

BOB: Amen. Well Kathryn what are we going to do? We’re going to keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: We would love to know where you are when you are listening to us. Please take a short minute to send us the call letters of this station and the city where you are listening and how many times a week you listen. Thank you, you will be helping us with our stewardship. Send it to radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. We are so thankful for our financial partners who keep us on the air. Every gift is tax-deductible and very much appreciated. If you’d like to find out how you can give go to faithalone.org. 

On our next episode the sheep and the goats from Matthew 25. Please join us and in the meantime let’s keep grace in focus.