ANNOUNCER: When, in the calendar of last things, the eschaton, does the judgment of the sheep and the goats happen? Has the kingdom already started at that point? Where does Jesus talk about this? And who are the sheep and who are the goats? Thank you for joining us, friend. This is Grace in Focus. We’re glad you’re with us today. And this is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is FaithAlone.org. We’re inviting you to our national annual conference happening soon, May 18th through the 21st. The venue is Camp Copass. It’s a beautiful camp on the lake with lots of recreation, great food, great fellowship, great teaching, and VBS for the kids. You will love it. If it’s your first time you can waive the registration fee and get all the information you need at our website, FaithAlone.org/events. Hope to see you there. 

And now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates. 

KEN: Bob, we got a question from Dan, and I’m just tempted to say Dan the man. I don’t know if he would appreciate that or not, but Dan asked a question about, and I’ve never heard this question asked before, and I think it’s a good one, he asked a question about the judgment of the sheep and goats. Now, we’ve talked about the sheep and goats in here before, but this is a very specific question, and it is: Jesus says in John 3, verse 5, that only believers will see the kingdom of God. We’ll say it like that. But in Matthew chapter 25, verse 31, when Jesus is judging the sheep and the goats, now we understand that to mean that these are the people who are alive at the end of the Tribulation, goats are unbelievers and sheep are believers, but it says in verse 31, that “When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the holy angels with Him,” here’s the key part, “then He will sit on the throne of His glory.” 

And Dan asked a question, well, if Jesus is sitting on His throne, then hasn’t the kingdom began? He’s ruling as the King, and it says in verse 40, it says, “And the King…will say to them,” so he’s pictured as the King, and He also says in verse 34, “Then the King will say to those on His right.” And so he’s pictured as the King, He’s on His throne, so doesn’t that mean that the kingdom has started? And if that’s the case, why are the goats in the kingdom? That’s the question.

BOB: All right, so I think it is an intriguing question, and I have several lines of answer. First of all, what is Matthew 24 and 25? 

KEN: The Olivet Discourse. 

BOB: And it’s called that because Jesus is standing on the Mount of all, and what is He talking about in the Olivet Discourse? 

KEN: Well, He’s talking about His return at the end of the Tribulation period. 

BOB: Right, so we get information here about the Tribulation, and we get signs that will occur during the Tribulation. 

KEN: During those seven years, right? 

BOB: That will tell people that the Second Coming is at hand. Right, so the question they ask, what is, there’s two questions they ask at the beginning of Matthew chapter 24.

KEN: These are the disciples. 

BOB: Yeah, what do they ask? 

KEN: They ask Him two questions. 

BOB: When will these things be? 

KEN: And what will be the sign of Your coming? 

BOB: So He answers them in reverse order. So starting in verse four, going to verse, what is it, 35, He answers the second question. 

KEN: What are the signs? 

BOB: What are the signs? And He gives all these signs leading up to verse 35. Then He goes on to the first question. What is the first question? 

KEN: When will this be? 

BOB: Okay. So then he goes on and He says that day and hour, no one knows, and He goes on to say He’s coming like a thief in the night, and you need to watch therefore. But one of the things that has puzzled a lot of people is verse 13 of Matthew 24, “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” Well, the word saved only occurs one other time, and that’s in verse 22. And what’s it talking about in verse 22? 

KEN: In verse 22, it’s talking about no flesh will be saved and thus those days are shortened. So it’s talking about physical death. 

BOB: Right. It’s also talking about physical death in verse 13. It’s saying the believer who endures to the end of the Tribulation will survive it. 

KEN: Now we would say survive the plagues and the judgment that God’s pouring out because some will be martyred. 

BOB: Right. What it’s saying is it’s not saying there won’t be martyrs. Right. We know there will be. But what it’s saying is when you get to the judgment of the sheep and the goats, 100% of the sheep will be born again. All of them. And they’re not only born again, but they’re all enduring believers. 

KEN: They’re faithful believers. 

BOB: They’re all going to be chosen to rule and reign. Every one of them. Now, by the way, this says nothing about children. This is talking about those 20 and over, whatever age you think the age of accountability is. I think in light of Kadesh-Barnea, it’s 20. So I would say 20 and over if they’re a Gentile and they’re a believer, they’re going to be faithful. If they’re unfaithful, they will have died before the end of the Tribulation. The same thing would be true with Jewish believers, but that’s a separate judgment. And during this judgment, Jesus talks about the least of these, My brethren, My brethren refers to Jewish. Well, with the Gentiles, Matthew 24:13 isn’t talking about unbelievers among the Gentiles. There are unbelievers among the Gentiles who survive. 

KEN: And these are the goats. 

BOB: And these are the goats. Now, when He’s called the King, isn’t He called the King in John 1:49 by Nathaniel? “You are the Son of God, You are the King of Israel.” Well, wasn’t He the King of Israel before He died on the cross? Is He the King of Israel today?

KEN: Yes, even though His kingdom has not started yet, He’s still the King. 

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BOB: So, for Him to be called the King, doesn’t mean the kingdom has started. And for Him to be sitting on a throne, which you said, this isn’t called the throne of David. So, we really don’t know if Matthew 25, what was verse 31? 

KEN: Matthew 25:31, right.

BOB: We don’t know if that’s talking about the Davidic throne, or His Father’s throne, because in Revelation 3:21 He says, “I overcame and sat down on the throne of My Father.” So, maybe the Father’s throne has been moved to earth, but we do know from Daniel chapter 12, what is it around verse 12, that it says there’s going to be 30 days, and then another 45 days after the 1260 days are up. 

KEN: After the Tribulation. 

BOB: After the Tribulation. This is going to take place during that time. So, I would say that we know that this occurs before the Millennium, because of the way this is arranged. For example, Matthew 24 ends with a parable, the just and the unjust servant, and the guy is doing well, but then he says, my Lord delays his coming, and he begins to beat his fellow servants, and he ends up getting cut in two at the Judgment Seat of Christ, which doesn’t refer to the literally being cut into, but to a rebuke by Christ. 

KEN: Sure. His words cut me in two. 

BOB: Right. Zane Hodges points out, and I think he’s right, that the way this works is A, B, A, B. That is, the parable at the end of Matthew 24 is church age. Then the parable of the ten virgins is clearly tribulation age, because they talk about the midnight cry. That’s when the abomination of desolation occurs. That’ll be in the middle of the Tribulation. Five of the virgins representing believers, they do not have sufficient spiritual strength. They don’t have an extra supply of oil, and so they fall away during the second half of the Tribulation. 

KEN: So the first half of the Tribulation, they were not preparing after Jesus told them to prepare. 

BOB: And so as a result, this is a tribulation issue, and at the end, the five are not chosen to do the torch dance, but that’s still before the Millennium. And then you get to the other A, which is the parable of the talents, that’s church age believers, and they’re going to be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ. That has to be before the Millennium starts, because how could they possibly rule and reign if they haven’t been judged yet? Therefore, we know that immediately preceding the judgment of the sheep and the goats, that the judgment of believers will occur before the Millennium. Well, how could the judgment of the sheep and the goats occur after the Millennium has already started? It wouldn’t make sense. 

KEN: We could also say, I’m going to pick up on that, that, you know, Dan asked particularly about the goats, well, wouldn’t it be true for the sheep as well? They need to be judged. 

BOB: Right, because they can’t be chosen to inherit the kingdom, unless the kingdom is not yet started. 

KEN: Right, and so they’re judged, and then they go into the kingdom with the rewards that they’re going to get. I would say that even among the sheep, there’s going to be differences. 

BOB: Yes, exactly. And keep in mind, Hodges holds the view. Remember in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom? Well, if that literally means that people in natural bodies cannot inherit the kingdom, that in order to inherit the kingdom, I need to be glorified. Then what that means is, every one of these adult Gentiles is going to be glorified before,

KEN:The sheep, we’re talking about the sheep.

BOB: All of the Gentiles sheep, they’re all going to be glorified before they go into the Millennium. And the ones that go into the Millennium in natural bodies will be the children of the sheep, the children of the goats, and the children of the believing Jews. But it’s children that go in in natural bodies. Now, not everybody agrees with that. I think he’s right, that these people will be glorified. Well, if they’re glorified, they have to be glorified before the Millennium starts. 

KEN: Right, and so what we’re saying to Dan’s question is, even though in verse 31, it says that He’s set on the throne of His glory, that doesn’t mean that the kingdom has begun. We might even say that wherever the king sets, let’s say he sets up a throne like, 

BOB: He’s got a folding chair, that’s His throne. 

KEN: That’s the throne. That’s the throne of His glory. And so as He conducts these judgments, I know John Claeys believes that the Judgment Seat of Christ will happen during this time as well. 

BOB: I think so too. 

KEN: So you got the Judgment Seat of Christ, maybe. You certainly got the judgment of the sheep and goats. Would we say as well, I don’t know what your view is, Bob, the judgment of believing Israel and from the Old Testament. Are they resurrected at this time? 

BOB: Well, it seems to me they need to be judged before they’re resurrected because, like these Gentiles are not yet been resurrected. They’re being judged right after the Tribulation. 

KEN: You don’t mean resurrected, you mean glorified. Because they’re alive. 

BOB: And so I would say that when He talks about “the least of these My brethren” He’s talking about Jewish believers standing near Him. He’s probably got a whole group of, you know, millions of Jewish believers. I believe, yes, He’s going to have a separate judgment for them even though we’re not told about that. 

KEN: Right. So he’s setting on His throne of glory in these judgments, but the kingdom is not started. That’s pretty much where we have to come to that conclusion. 

BOB: That’s a dispensational view and I think it makes perfect sense. 

KEN: Well, thanks for the question, Dan. We hope that helps and it inspires you to study it even further. And remember, keep grace in focus.

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On our next episode: can a person get assurance from John 3:16 without knowing about assurance and security? Please join us again and in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus.