Transcript

ANNOUNCER: The Grace Evangelical Society does missions. This is Grace in Focus, and today, continuing yesterday’s topic, we are discussing some lessons learned on a recent GES-sponsored mission trip. Thank you for joining us today, friend. This is the radio and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org. We’d love you to go there, learn more about us. Also, we have a YouTube channel, YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. We release short videos there, and you’re invited to watch them. Once again, our website, faithalone.org. 

Now, with today’s conversation, here are our Ken Yates and Kathryn Wright. 

KEN: We just did a podcast on your recent trip with a family that’s been partners with GES for a long time. The Ritchies, you just got back from Uganda. 

KATHRYN: Sure did. Still a little jet-lagged, not going to lie. Probably going to take a nap later today. 

KEN: We talked a little bit about the trip and some of the great aspects of it, and we just thought we’d have a second one. What are some of the lessons learned while you were over there? And again, this is some of you might be thinking, well, what does GES do on the mission field? Or maybe this again is something that you might want to do. Be a part of in the future if the Lord tarries. 

KATHRYN: Or if you are going on a mission trip and you’d like GES to be involved, reach out to us and we’ll see. 

KEN: Or if you’re going on a mission trip, hey, this might be some of the stuff that you will encounter as well. By the way, GES is looking at really emphasizing of missions in the Spanish-speaking countries as well, particularly Mexico and the Dominican Republic. So just keep all these things in your prayers. So, Kathryn, what were some of the things that stood out for you on this trip? You were there for roughly a little less than two weeks as you and the Ritchies when you saw things. And what is it that do you think are important to share for our listeners? I know there’s too many, but just pick out some of the highlights. And some of the lowlights. 

KATHRYN: I was about to say I have some lowlights to start us off with, but maybe I can end with some high notes. This is my ninth time going to Africa, but my second time in Uganda. And I mean, they’re not all the same, but there are similarities when you are dealing with ministry in Africa. And overwhelming what you’re going to find is that the churches there are Arminians, and so they believe that you can lose your salvation. Many of them have strong charismatic leanings as well. And when I say that it’s rooted in tribal beliefs and very superstitious beliefs, and so you’re dealing with just a lack of understanding of demonology, for example. 

KEN: They see demons all over the place. 

KATHRYN: They see everything, you know, vegetables can be demons to them. And so people born with disabilities are demonic or the product of demons. Just very —the merging of those tribal beliefs with Christianity and not having a good understanding of those things has led to a lot unfortunate realities for them. 

KEN: Now this isn’t demonic or maybe they do consider it demonic, but you mentioned some of the beliefs. And I would imagine that this is also found in the churches like, if a person commits suicide. 

KATHRYN: Yes, you know, this was the first time I asked, we went by a funeral while we were there. And so I was just interested to know what are some of the traditions with funerals. And I found out that if you commit suicide, they think that your body’s cursed, they think you go to hell. If they’re within the Christian community, they just automatically see you as going to hell, which is incorrect. But once you believe in Jesus for eternal life, even if you commit suicide, you still are His child regardless. But they believe that if you commit suicide, you’ll go to hell. And then they also think that your body is cursed. And so they won’t touch your body. They’ll cane the body. And then they will drag it to a pit and they won’t do any funeral rights for somebody who’s committed suicide—incredibly sad. And then I also found that… 

KEN: And I just want our listeners to understand, they hear a story like that and you may assume, oh, well, that’s just the unbelievers. You know, that’s a non—No, no, these are, this will be in churches as well. 

KATHRYN: Correct, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then another one of their superstitious beliefs is that if somebody dies without having had children for whatever reason, they consider that person cursed. And so they will not bring their body out the front door. You know, so if they died in their homes, which is typical, they will have to remove the body by taking it out through a window or some other other means. They cannot come through the front door because then the whole family would be cursed as well. 

KEN: Yeah, and again, just keep in mind, even in the churches there people will be doing that. 

KATHRYN: Yeah, and the first day I was there, we had a briefing with our friends. You know, the local Ugandans that were helping us put together the conferences and the first thing that they told us is that we needed to be aware of the corruption within the leadership of these churches, because so often these pastors are using their position to get money from their congregation. Tithing is a huge deal there. And in addition, they’re claiming to be apostles. They’re claiming to be prophets. They’re claiming to have the gift of healing. And so they’re using that position of power to manipulate the people, which is why I think the Arminian view is being perpetuated because they can basically scare their congregation into obedience by saying, well, if you don’t do what I tell you to do, then you’ll go to hell. 

ANNOUNCER: The Grace Evangelical Society Seminary, GES Seminary, is getting ready for the 2025 fall semester. All classes are online and we are now ready to receive your application. GESSeminary.org is where you apply. And if you want to begin studying this fall, we must receive your application by July 29th. That’s GESSeminary.org. Classroom size is limited, so let us hear from you soon. Apply now, GESSeminary.org. 

KATHRYN: Let me give an example of one of the accounts that my friend gave me, the Ugandan friend there. There was a friend of his whose daughter had been born with cerebral palsy, and her pastor claimed to be able to heal. She went to him and they said, if you give him, I think it was close to $200. Like, I don’t even know what the equivalent of that would be for us, but it’s a lot. You know, that’s a lot of money for them. Then when they’d set the appointment up for the healing to take place, they canceled, obviously, because, you know, it was all a sham. And then the pastor said you have to do a second installment, so she had to pay for it a second time too, roughly $200. Then, again, canceled and never met with her. And I asked, I was like, well, did they refund her? You know, if they refused to meet and my friend laughed, because he said, no, of course not, because how can you even prove that you’ve given him money? There’s no, you know, documentation of it, and eventually the child passed away from her condition. And so… 

KEN: And plus, the pastor could simply say, well, I knew that you didn’t have the faith or whatever. Whatever they [unintelligible] come up with. 

KATHRYN: And so, this is the problem with the, with the churches is that the leadership is just so destructive. 

KEN: Now, I didn’t go on this trip to Uganda, but I have been to these other countries in Africa. Some of them. And I know people will say, I’m being too hard here, and I’m being a jerk. But my experience is that the American missionaries don’t call them out on this. Not nearly as much as they should. You know, these people ought to be calling this nonsense out, because it’s destructive. 

KATHRYN: Yes. 

KEN: And it’s not just the, the corruption. I want money off these people. And, but even the theology, if you’re a missionary, and you believe in the assurance of eternal life, and you’re just surrounded by people who say you can lose your salvation for committing suicide or not having children, or whatever the, whatever it is that they add, you need to call them out on it, but they don’t. 

KATHRYN: They don’t. Right. Yeah, that was something Brian and I tried to emphasize as well, is that what does the Lord say about eternal life? What is the Lord saying in the Gospel of John, when He says that those who believe in me have everlasting life and shall never perish? Regardless of what your pastor says, if it doesn’t correspond with what the Lord says then, I mean, you’re trying to give them permission to say your pastor can be wrong. 

KEN: Well, in those cases, every example you gave, you know, there should have been people who called that out. Yeah, and I’ll, I’ll add too, one of the issues that I saw while being there, especially in the second conference that we had, which was in an area where there was more of an American influence through missions, was that some Calvinism had also creeped into these congregations. 

KEN: So not just Arminianism, but Calvinism. 

KATHRYN: Correct. Specifically the idea of election, that God chooses some people to go to heaven and then some to go to hell. And that, you know, if he’s predestined you to go to heaven, you’re good to go. But if he hasn’t, then you’re bound for hell. And so not only did we have to deal with the Arminian issues, but several times we had to deal with, you know, Jacob, I loved and Esau I hated. 

KEN: And I mean, you know, those are connected. And yeah, GES, we’ve said that, you know, the Arminian says you could lose your salvation. The Calvinist says you can’t lose it, but if you don’t do good works, you never had it. And those are basically twins. Neither one of them offer the assurance of everlasting life. So it’s not surprising that Calvinism would be more easily accepted in a place like that. 

KATHRYN: Yeah. And I guess too, going back to what you were saying about missionaries not calling out the bad teaching, the reality is that a lot of these American missionaries are just coming in and adding to the bad teaching. And so that’s obviously disheartening on one hand, but also just being able to come in and shine a light on it was really good. We got to see a lot of people come to assurance during our conferences and they could see, they could see the truth through it all. And so that was exciting. 

KEN: And if I could put in a plug for GES, fairly commonly we’re told, well, you know, GES, you’re too, a stickler for theology. Well, here’s an example why, you know, we go there and we go, no, no, don’t tell these people they’re going to hell for this. You know, or don’t tell these people if they had to do this, they weren’t part of the elect. 

KATHRYN: The last day I was there, I had a woman come up to me who had had a late term still birth. We were speaking in on assurance and this woman, a good friend of the Ritchie family actually, but she’s a Ugandan. And she, I think they said she was eight months along when she lost, you know, she had a still birth and she came up to me afterward and she just had questions about, you know, was that something that I’d done wrong? 

And it was, I mean, I spent as much time as I could talking to her, you know, John 9, you know, the blind man, who sinned the parents or this man, neither, you know, just trying to show her no. And she just stood there with just tears streaming down her face. It was just the most, you know, on one hand, you’re just so angry at the bad teaching, but also just so, I’m so thankful that the truth was able to reach her, you know, and that she was able to hear. 

And afterward, I found out she’d read through John 9 and she texted us back and said it really helped her. And so the power of God’s word to heal some of these wounds that have been given to the Ugandans through bad teachers, but that the Lord, you know, through sound teaching can cut through that darkness was really, it was, I mean, so heartbreaking, but so, so good to see that at least, you know, we were able to make some headway on some of those things. But—

KEN: Well, great to have you back just thanks for everybody who supports work like this. It’s so much needed in the States and even in other countries. So thanks for spreading grace in Uganda, Ritchies and Kathryn and every partner we have, and in the meantime, all of us keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode, sharing some principles for Christian giving, hope you’ll join us. Until then, let’s keep grace in focus.