Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Today, a question based on Revelation 14:11. Is it possible that a believer could take the mark of the beast or worship the image of the beast during the Great Tribulation and lose eternal salvation? And what will be the nature of the future existence of unbelievers? This is Grace in Focus, friend, we’re glad you’re with us. We are the broadcast and podcast arm of the Grace Evangelical Society, a free grace organization. Our website is faithalone.org. And we’d love you to make a resolution in this new year to come and join us at our national annual conference. May 18th through the 21st. All of the information and details you need to know are found at our website faithalone.org. And if you have other questions, you can email us radio@faithalone.org.

Now, with the final installment of our eschatology series, here are our hosts, Bob Wilkin, and Philippe Sterling. 

BOB: Well, Philippe, we have a question that relates to our series on eschatology. I believe it was Cal who had written in a question about Revelation chapter 14, particularly verse 11, we’ve used to say supports the idea of ECT or eternal conscious torment, but Cal sees it a little differently. And Cal agrees with us about the free gift of eternal life. And he knows for sure he has everlasting life, but maybe you could read his question. 

PHILIPPE: His concern is that believers might take the mark or bend the knee to the image and somehow not have everlasting life, if they’re tormented, if that’s what 14:9-11 means. 

BOB: Okay, so let’s read Revelation 14:9, 10, and 11. “Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 

Now what you and I suggested is this is referring to what will occur forever and ever with those who take the mark of the beast. And our point was that this is unbelievers who are taking the mark of the beast, right? 

PHILIPPE: Yes, the unbelievers who do, certainly they’ll experience the cup of the wrath of God. We’ve talked about these seven bowl judgments, but they’ll be subjected to the lake of fire, ultimately, as well.

BOB: Okay, so what this means is ultimately during the Tribulation, it’ll probably be the only time in the history of mankind, where a person can be so hardened that they will no longer be able to come to faith. In other words, these people will be alive, but they will be incapable of believing because once they take of the mark of the beast, they will be sealed in unbelief, right? 

A couple things that Cal needs to remember. First of all, church age believers, which Cal is, won’t be in the Tribulation. We can’t take the mark of the beast because the mark of the beast won’t start until that seven year time period. In fact, it won’t even be at the very beginning, right? It’s gonna be sometime in the first half. 

PHILIPPE: And this particular judgment is in the second half after the abomination of desolation and the false prophet persuading everyone to take the mark and to worship the image of the beast. 

BOB: Okay, so is that when they start first giving the mark of the beast in the second half? 

PHILIPPE: As we read the passage, this is at the abomination of desolation and the period following that. 

BOB: So first of all, Cal, you won’t be there. So you can’t take the mark of the beast and people who think, I’m not gonna use a credit card because credit cards might be the mark of the beast or I’m not gonna, if they start implanting chips in you or if they were gonna put a barcode on my hand, they’re not gonna let them do that. Anything we do now is not the mark of the beast. 

PHILIPPE: The believers of the church age are not gonna be around. We’ll all be raptured, whether we’re watching or not we’ll be taken up to be with the Lord. So this is something that will occur to people during the time of the Tribulation period, primarily at the second half. 

BOB: Okay, now the second point to keep in mind, there will be many believers during the Tribulation and some of these believers might be seriously tempted to take the mark of the beast, right? We know if they took the mark of the beast, this would be true of them. So let’s do the reasoning. Once a person believes in Christ, he has everlasting life that can never be lost. 

PHILIPPE: Correct. 

BOB: And anybody in the Tribulation that takes the mark of the beast will be condemned forever. Conclusion, no believer during the Tribulation will ever take the mark of the beast. 

PHILIPPE: Yes, either they’ll, if they were tempted to, perhaps the Lord will graciously take their lives before that event. 

BOB: Or he may bring someone into their life to say, don’t do that. That’s stupid, do you really want to die early? And I assume after a while, when a number of believers have died prematurely who were thinking about taking the mark of the beast, word will get around. You don’t want to go there, right? But God won’t allow it. 

And the third thing to recognize, I’ve heard a lot of people want to explain Revelation 14:11 is dealing with judgment in this life because they don’t believe in ECT, eternal conscious torment. I remember I talked to a friend and he said, nobody is going to be in the lake of fire forever. There is going to be no eternal conscious torment. 

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BOB: And I remember I talked to a friend and he said, there is going to be no eternal conscious torment. Well in the first place, Revelation 14:11 is talking about the smoke of their torment ascending forever and ever. And they have no rest day and night. And this compares to some verses later in the book of Revelation.

PHILIPPE: Yes, in Revelation 20, verse 10, we’re told the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they’ve been there for a thousand years. 

BOB: Revelation 19:20 is they were first cast there. 

PHILIPPE: And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 

BOB: And the they is the unholy trinity, the devil and the false prophet and the beast. And the false prophet and the beast are humans. I pointed it out to this friend of mine. I said, look, you will at least admit based on Revelation 20:10, there’s at least going to be two humans in the lake of fire forever. And he said, I can’t see any way around that. Well, if that’s the case and you go back to 14:11, that’s true also of anybody who takes the mark of the beast. And if you then go to Revelation 20:15, anyone who’s not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire and they’re joining the beast and the false prophet and all those who took the mark of the beast during the Tribulation, all unbelievers of all time will experience eternal conscious torment. Now we’ve talked before, this would be tolerable torment. It’s not going to be something which is intolerable. And a lot of people have a medieval concept. The Bible doesn’t actually give us any details about the torment currently in Hades or what the torment is going to be like in the lake of fire other than it’s torment. 

PHILIPPE: Yeah, and we know basically that it’s an eternal existence. It’s an eternal exclusion from God and from the kingdom. And it involves a state of being that’s confirmed in corruption and in sinfulness. But we’re not told specifically what the torment is, but it’s associated,I think, with those things. 

BOB: And we do know in Matthew 10 and Matthew 11, Jesus said to cities in Israel, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than it will be for you. He’s talking about the Great White Throne Judgment for them. And He’s not talking just about that day, but He’s talking about that day opening up into all of eternity. But notice the expression more tolerable tells us that it’ll be more tolerable for some than for others. But it will be tolerable for all. And so some people say, well, you know, the lake of fire is going to be the worst torment the worst pain, the worst suffering ever experienced in mankind. The Bible never says that or hints at it. In fact, when Jesus talks about more tolerable or less tolerable, that obviously shows that it’s not going to be like eternal childbirth or eternally kidney stones or eternally being tortured or something. Now we don’t know what it’s going to be. 

There’s two extremes to avoid. One extreme to avoid is to say, oh, it’s not going to be conscious or it’s not going to be eternal or it’s not going to be painful. No, it will. But the other extreme is to say, it’s going to be unimaginable, intolerable pain, worse pain than anybody’s ever experienced. That’s wrong too. The truth in the middle is it’s going to be torment, it’s going to be eternal, it’s going to be conscious, it’s not going to be something anyone would want. But on the other hand, it’s not the same as most people view the lake of fire or hell. 

And in fact, I think if you came up to people in the lake of fire and said, would you rather be annihilated or continue to exist? I think they’re going to say, I’d like to continue to exist. We don’t really know what the lake of fire is going to be like. Other than it’s going to be eternal, it’s going to be conscious, it’s going to be torment. 

And like you say, it’s going to be exclusion. I think a great part of the pain and suffering of the lake of fire is going to be realizing we’ve missed out on the righteous kingdom. We’ve missed out on the just kingdom, on the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. We’re in this place instead of the place we could have been. 

PHILIPPE: Yes. I think it’s good to end with what Jesus says, in conclusion to all of these matters that we’ve talked about, the end times. He says in Revelation 22, it’s repeated three times, verse seven, “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” Then verse 12, “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.” And then verse 20, “He who testifies to these things says, Surely I am coming quickly.” And then, “Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus!” 

BOB: Amen. 

PHILIPPE: So looking again to His coming, that His reward is with Him. 

BOB: Right. So, Cal, don’t worry about the mark of the beast. You’re not going to be there. You’re not going to take it. But look forward to His reward. Look forward to ruling and reigning with Him if you remain faithful. Be a watchful Christian. 

Well, thanks so much, everybody. And remember, let’s keep grace in focus. 

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Now we want to say thanks for joining us all this week and all this past year. Here on Grace in Focus, we do wish you a Happy New Year and a very pleasant weekend. Be present at a Bible teaching church and let’s keep grace in focus.