Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Romans 12:19-21 do not avenge yourselves. What does this mean? Should trusting God to protect us just be passive? What is God’s role and what is ours? Let’s have a discussion about this today and thank you for joining us on Grace in Focus. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society and we have a website, faithalone.org. We also produce short videos which you can find at our YouTube channel, YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. Go there, subscribe, like them, and share them with others. That’s YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. 

Our website once again, faithalone.org and now let’s hear our discussion today from Sam Marr and Philippe Sterling. 

SAM: We have a question from Hayden. 

PHILIPPE: Yes, Hayden asks, if we are actively being attacked, beside praying for our enemies, can we defend ourselves physically, politically, or must we turn the other cheek and give them our coat? 

SAM: All right, so there are a few categories that we have outlined to talk about here. It wasn’t mentioned in this question and it’s, I think it’s clear to a lot of people that this is beyond what he’s talking about. But we’re going to start off by talking about the topic of vengeance. Does a believer have the right as a believer to seek vengeance for a wrong that was done to them? 

PHILIPPE: Okay, and we do have a very well of a passage of Scripture to that. And that’s in the book of Romans chapter 12, where the Apostle Paul writes, “Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath. For it is written, vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord. Therefore, if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap coals of fire on his head.” 

So the context here is a matter of personal vengeance. You know, when wrong has been done to us, should we go ahead and avenge ourselves on that person, and Paul is clear, God, with his temporal wrath, will deal with the issue, as He will. But in that case, our role is not to seek vengeance and even go further than that.

If we have the opportunity to do good to the person who has wronged us in whatever fashion, then we’re to go ahead and do that. If we have the opportunity to give him a drink or to feed them, if that’s the need to happen, to have to, go ahead and do that. Vengeance is, individual vengeance is God’s domain. It’s not ours. So we’re not to engage in that. 

SAM: Right. And that part of that’s because the natural expectation from the world standpoint is if something, if you do wrong to somebody, then they’re going to get revenge on you. And so if a person does you wrong and then rather than try and seek revenge, you do right by them, you give them a drink when they’re thirsty or give them food when they’re hungry, then you’re breaking the world order, you know, the natural way of things. And that’s going to point to God’s goodness and to Christ. So, but that’s like we said, that’s not quite what Hayden’s probably talking about here. 

So let’s go to the next category broken out. What does he mean? Well, we don’t know exactly what he means by defending yourself politically. But what’s your perspective on that, Philippe? 

PHILIPPE: So here we’re dealing with, I’m not, in Hayden’s case where he lives in a place where he’s in a minority, or perhaps as a conservative or whatever, and they’re experiencing, they’re being unjustly dealt with in that. So how should he respond? How should we respond in such a case? And Scriptures, I think, gives us examples of several things. You know, if we’re in an oppressive context and we’re able to escape out of that situation, then by all means, you know, we are to do so. 

And an example would be the persecution that the early believers experienced in Jerusalem after the stoning of Stephen. Many of them left, as a result, they escaped from that, those who were able to now. Some other stayed behind, and perhaps with they found ways to protect themselves in that context, in other ways. But if possible to escape by all means, you know, and do so, if escape is not possible, then you function as best as you can in that environment, but without going to, to insurrection, to go against the system in a kind of insurrection of a way. That is not, that not open to us. But if we can escape, you know, by all means we’re to do so. 

But in some cases, we may be called to suffer, even to suffer martydom as the church at Smyrna was and they were promised then the crown of life for those who were unjustly treated and perhaps even losing their lives in such a situation. 

SAM: Yeah, I think Paul’s a good example too, because he, when he was under house arrest, he stayed and he was unjustly being kept there and it was partially for his safety, but partially to appease his persecutors. But when the opportunity arose for him to escape, he escaped, he didn’t just stay and say, well, I’m suffering for the Lord. So we get to stay here and wait till someone kills me and he escaped and preserved his life in that way so he could continue his ministry. 

So I think the important principle here for believers is wherever you are, you’re serving the Lord. And so if you’re stuck somewhere, there’s no possibility for escape, you’re enduring trials and it’s because you’re a Christian or because of your being persecuted, stay strong, suffer for the Lord. And if the opportunity arises to leave, but no matter what you’re doing, you should be staying true to what Christ calls us to do to love God and love one another. 

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SAM: So I think the important principle here for believers is stay strong, suffer for the Lord, it’s not your responsibility, your calling to overthrow the system that you’re a part of, but do what you need to do to keep yourself and your family safe. And if the opportunity arises to leave, then leave and go be somewhere where you can be safe. But no matter what you’re doing, you should be staying true to what Christ calls us to do—to love God and love one another. And so as long as you’re not breaking those commandments and what you’re doing, then I don’t think I don’t think you’re being a coward or being, whatever the perception might be there. 

But then that kind of brings us into the final category. And I think this might be more what Hayden was talking about. And this is what a lot of believers discuss and argue over and don’t seem to come to clear conclusions on is what does a believer allowed to do while still obeying Christ in order to defend themselves physically from harm. If someone is assaulting me, attacking me, whether they’re threatening my life or just threatening me physically, trying to steal from me, what am I as a Christian allowed to do to defend myself before it becomes sin, I guess? 

PHILIPPE: So this is a matter of self-defense, you know, whether it’s for ourselves directly in a situation of where our lives are being endangered or our personal safety is being challenged in any way that we can combat against. And here I’m reminded of what is even advised, you know, if you’re ever in a situation where there’s an active shooter, you know, about what are you to do in a school setting or wherever it may be.

And these are the three things I think that will encourage, you know, one is if you can barricade yourself in to protect yourself and those under your charge by all means, you know, do so. If you’re able to run and escape by all means, do so. But if neither of those options are available and the active shooter comes into the classroom or wherever it may be, you combat that person in whatever way you can. And using whatever is in your means, you know, to do that. If you use the armament that you have, if you have to grab something and hit them with it, you do that, you know, you do that to whatever, to guarantee your physical safety or those for whom you are responsible. 

And so that’s the whole matter of self-defense in a setting, you know, such as that or wherever we find ourselves. Now, if somebody’s robbing you, it’s best to give them your phone, you know, give them your wallet or whatever it is. But if they’re going to try to kill you, then you use whatever means you can to to counteract including the the most extreme means if you’re able to have a gun and you can defend yourself in that way. Nothing does any scriptural grounds to forbid that. 

SAM: Right. We don’t, once we become believers, we don’t abdicate the right to preserve our own lives or especially of our families. And so, but this would be where we have to keep the distinction clear between defense and vengeance because you can defend yourself adequately, but then let’s say that person gets away. You now don’t have the right to hunt them down and kill them or if something, you know, God forbid it ever happens, but let’s say someone hurts or kills one of your family members. And it’s that it’s done. It’s over and done with. You don’t have the right to go hunt that person down because you’re no longer preserving life, you’re now just ending more life. And that is sinful. 

But if someone is threatening your life or the life of someone you’re with, then I personally, I think you have a responsibility to defend life. And when, when someone is threatening life, they or, you know, bodily harm, then they lose their right to, to their own personal safety. They, as soon as you’re the aggressor, you, you know, abdicated your, your protection legally in America, you now are not protected under the law. You forfeit your right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, as soon as you start breaking the law in a way that’s going to harm or kill someone else. And I think you’re completely right. There’s no Scripture that really indicates that believers forfeit their right to that. 

But of course, I think, I think it’s, I want to go back to Romans 12. So you read 19 and 20 and verse 21, he ends that chapter by saying, “do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good”. So I think that is the key principle to keep in mind here with all these topics is whatever situation you’re in, use the discernment, that God and the Holy Spirit have given you in whatever decision you make, as long as it’s the one that is overcoming evil with good, then I think it’s the right decision. And seeking vengeance, murdering someone that’s never good, that’s always evil. 

But if defending yourself is you’re overcoming that evil with your good, then I think you’re abiding by Scripture. So I, would wholeheartedly encourage and Hayden, we’re not sure what circumstance you’re going through. Hopefully you’re not being physically persecuted. But of whatever circumstance you’re in, pray, read Scripture, seek to have the mind of Christ and overcome evil with good in whatever means necessary. And by doing all of that, we’ll all keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode: what is the forgiving and the retaining of sins that Jesus spoke about? Please join us and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.