Gordon H. Clark once said, “Unless one knows the definition, he does not know what he is talking about” (see here).
I recently wrote a blog where I said that while GES believed that Jesus is God in a fully Trinitarian sense, we deny that you need to believe that to be born-again (to grow, yes, but not to be born again).
I also explained that our critics strongly disagree. They insist you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved. However, I also claimed they rarely define what, exactly, that means. They say that Jesus is God, but they do not give a definition of the deity of Christ.
That’s a huge problem, for a very simple reason.
There are (at least) three ways to evaluate an argument.
First, are the terms clear?
Second, are the premises true?
Third, is the logic sound?
For example, let’s say I made the following argument:
Premise 1: All cats are grue.
Premise 2: Mr. Bonkers is a cat.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mr. Bonkers is grue.
Is that argument true or false?
Obviously, you can’t know until you define what “grue” means, right?
When you know what “grue” means, then you can evaluate whether the premise is true or false. If, say, “grue” means “an aquatic plant” then Premise 1 is false, because cats are not aquatic plants. If “grue” means “a mammal” then Premise 1 is true because cats are mammals. Either way, in order to determine the meaning of a premise, the terms need to be defined.
So how does that apply to debates about Jesus deity?
Our critics often fail to define their terms.
So, they will say something like the following:
“You must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”
Or
“You must believe in the deity or divinity of Christ to be saved.”
Are those premises true or false? What do you need to know before you make that evaluation? Obviously, you need to know what the terms “God” or “deity” or “divinity” mean. You can’t assume a definition, especially since Christians have spent hundreds of years defining the correct and incorrect meanings of those terms.
So I am astonished, and not a little depressed, when our critics (both pastors and laypeople) seem incapable of giving a straightforward answer to the question, “How do you define the deity of Christ?”
They seem to find that question threatening.
I have had people reply and try to evade that responsibility by making it seem like I was asking them to write a book on the Trinity, “How can I fully define what it means for Jesus to be God? No one can do that!”
No one asked for a “full” definition. You just need to provide any definition— whatever you think is necessary to give meaning to your claim. If you think you need to offer a long definition, go ahead. If you think a short one will suffice, go ahead. Either way, I cannot evaluate your claim until you give me some definition of your terms.
I’ve had other people actually deny that they need to write any definition at all.
What?
Did you learn to use a dictionary in elementary school? Why? To look up definitions, right? And why do you look up definitions? To know what a word means. And why is that important? Because if you read a sentence with one or more words you don’t understand, you can’t understand the sentence until you understand the words.
Simple right?
Some critics have offered definitions of what it means for Jesus to be God, deity, or divine. Sadly, those definitions are often heretical.
If someone asked me to define what it means for Jesus to be God, I would point them to the definitions of the councils of Nicaea (both of them) and the council of Chalcedon. Jesus is one substance (or ousia) with the Father and Spirit. He has all the attributes of deity.
Unfortunately, there is a high degree of theological illiteracy in the churches, both among pastors and congregations. Instead of being taught the Trinity from their youth, they honestly don’t know what it means for Jesus to be God. They know that’s what they should say, but they don’t really know what they mean when they say it.
Let me end with another Clark quote, “Theological terms need to be defined; they need to be understood; or else we do not know what we are talking about.”
KEN TAMASHIRO
Hi Pastor Shawn,
May I disagree with the idea that a person does not have to believe Jesus is God in order to be Saved.
My reasoning is this: many Jews today do not believe Jesus is God, nor can God come in a form of a Human, (the incarnation).
If they come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Christ as did Peter in his declaration that Jesus is the Christ or the Woman at the Well believed He was the Messiah or at the Baptism of Christ where God declares Him as his Son, they would be Saved by recognizing Him as the Savior of the World by placing their Faith in Him.
Many Cults do not understand that Jesus is God and that He has come in the Flesh. That is the key towards conversion and belief that Christ alone can take away their Sins, by Faith in Him.
Many Jews would know who God is and can say He is the Creator of Life.
This is just my view only.
Ken Tamashiro,
Steve
Jesus Christ is God Almighty and the scriptures plainly affirm this to be so.
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Colossians 2:8-10
17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28: 17,18
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John 10:30-33
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8: 57,58
13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Exodus 3:13-15
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8: 24
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever
believeth in HIM, should not perish but have Everlasting Life.
John 3:16
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1-3
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:1-4
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:6
One cannot be born again unless, ultimately he/she believes the above scriptures to be true.
Maranatha friend
Alvin
I believe that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, and that He is part of the Godhead which is made up of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:23; John 1:1,14; Phil 2:5-8; Rom 1:20).
When I witness (For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God Acts 20:27.) That is I use the evidence to persuade people that Jesus is the Christ (John 20:30-31; 11:25-27; Acts 28:24).
But at the end of the day anyone who has believed Jesus in a simple childlike verse as John 6:47 is born of God (1 John 5:1a).
Verses showing that believers did not know Jesus was God or that He would be the Savior of the world in the sense He would die on a cross for the sins of the world. They believed that He would set up His Kingdom, yet they believed in Him as the Christ and were born of God. And the Gospel of John was written well after they believed, and that Jesus was risen, but yet the living water (message of life) has not changed (Jesus is the Christ, eternal life, believe). The message of the cross is the eighth sign in the Gospel of John, and when it’s understood in the way that Jesus is the Christ people are born of God.
John 20:8-9
8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.
Note: this proves that the resurrection was a different proposition than believing in Jesus as the Christ.
John 14:5-11
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
Note:Thomas is a born again believer who has no idea that Jesus is God, and that there is only ONE God which is the Godhead made up of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
John 13:19
18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ 19 Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.
Note: Eleven of Jesus disciples were already born again but did not yet believe “that I am He.” They were already clean (John 13:10).
John 8:24
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Note: We already saw that Jesus disciples had not yet believed that Jesus was “I am” in John 13:19 showing that it was not a condition for eternal life. We also know that no one is cast into the lake of fire because of their sins. They are cast into the Lake of Fire because their names are not written in the Book Of Life, that is they don’t have everlasting life (Revelation 20:15; John 1:29; 16:9). In the context of John 8:24,34 they were slaves of sin, and if they did not believe that Jesus was “I am He” they would die in that condition.
John 10:33-36
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Note: Here Jesus does not rebuke their accusation that He made Himself out to be God, but uses Scripture to show that ones were called gods to whom the word of God came. So He makes the case for calling Himself the Son of God. Why did He do that when He knew their accusation was true. I believe it’s because He lowered Himself by becoming a man and laying aside His glory took the place of a Servant, subjecting Himself to the Father. This is something that did not need to be understood for eternal life, but was a different proposition to be believed.
John 7:41-42
41 Others said, “This is the Christ.”
But some said, “Will the Christ come out of Galilee? 42 Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the seed of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was?”
Note: There was confusion with not only where Jesus was born, and who His father and mother were, but even with His disciples knew things didn’t line up. Other words they didn’t have all the answers concerning Him but yet believed for eternal life (see John 1:45-50).
John 6:53-69
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [a]food indeed, and My blood is [b]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [d]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Note: This was a difficult saying and we know even though the eleven had already believed in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God, and were
born of God but yet didn’t understand this saying. Because the Scriptures had not yet been revealed to them concerning the cross (John 1:22).
Luke 24:11
And their words seemed to them like idle tails, and they did not believe them.
Luke 18:34
But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.
Luke 18:19
So Jesus said to Him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Jesus is clearly not revealing Himself here as God because this is a different proposition, inheriting eternal life comes after receiving eternal life as a gift. The rich young ruler wants to know what he can do to inherit eternal life. Jesus knew that the law had not done it’s job yet in this young man’s life by shutting his mouth by showing himself his sin. In the OT economy one needed to keep the law all the way to the end of ones life to gain righteousness by the law, which no one could. Of course though if he could he would have everlasting life , and inherit the Kingdom as Paul says in Romans 2:6-7. But, there is none righteous, no not one. This ruler needed to know this.
So, Jesus gives him the law. The bottom line here is that he is trusting in his riches (Mark 10:24 Children how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God). The rich young ruler would first have to get the cart before the horse.
Mark 8:31-32
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him.
Note: Do you really think that if Peter knew Jesus was God that he would have taken Him aside like a little child and rebuked Him? No, I don’t think so~!
Mark 4:35-41
35 On the same day, when evening had come, He said to them, “Let us cross over to the other side.” 36 Now when they had left the multitude, they took Him along in the boat as He was. And other little boats were also with Him. 37 And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. 38 But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?”
39 Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace,[a] be still!” And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. 40 But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?” 41 And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, “Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!”
Note: They didn’t have a clue who Jesus really was, that He was God manifested in the flesh~!
The living water has not changed, and is offered again in Revelation 22:17 to whoever desires to take the water of life freely~!
Roger Fankhauser
Since much of this is verbatim from a conversation you and I had on FB, might I add (and you post) part of my replies? The problem could also be that you rejected the definitions. Many have a broad idea of God and believe In such a God as an unbeliever. And Thomas simply declared Jesus as “my Lord and my God.” No definition… just affirmed Him as God. So, I think it is, in fact, valid to argue that understanding the deity of Christ in a broad way as “God” is not unreasonable. Keep in mind, John’s readers did not HAVE hundreds of years defining the terms.
When you argued the idea of a general understanding of deity was insufficient, I then defined deity with the same terms used by John defining His deity and often used in Christology to define His deity – the word WAS God, “before Abraham was, I AM,” etc. The reader of John would see many references to His deity before 20:31. And not a single “definition” although His deity is not in doubt. You opted to dismiss that effort as, “you are describing Him, not defining Him.” Seems that describing can be a valid form – and often a powerful form – of definition.
The problem, from my view, is not lack of definition but your rejection of the definition. A much different issue.
And your reference to “grue” is a weak analogy. Of course, if you know basically what “grue” means, you can evaluate the truth of the statement. And you opt hete to add (which were not in our discussion) the example if true being a mammal. A very general description
You did not name me in this blog, but I know from the precise words that it is badically our conversation. One I thought was a disagreement between friends, not fodder for a public blog. You’re not the only one feeling disappointment.
Roger S Fankhauser
Oops – typos. My apologies to any who read this. I won’t correct them here…
Thanks for posting the response.
Alvin
If someone asked me to define what it means for Jesus to be God, I would point them to the definitions of the councils of Nicaea (both of them) and the council of Chalcedon. Jesus is one substance (or ousia) with the Father and Spirit. He has all the attributes of deity.
I think it’s a sad day when we have to point people to these councils of Nicaea, and the council of Chalcedon to define Jesus as God. If we can’t define it from Scripture maybe it’s to much for our little puny brains to comprehend~! And as Zane would say, if the Scriptures are silent on it, we need to be silent~!
Anyway we’re talking about a complete different proposition than believing in Jesus as the Christ. That proposition was believed in the Gospel of John, and people were born again. It’s pretty clear the disciples didn’t understand that Jesus was God.
“Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”
These theological legalist have their lists. I like what Zane said about it:
The marvelous truth of free grace is this: A guilty sinner with far from adequate knowledge about the Person and work of our Lord can come to Him and believe that Jesus will give him eternal life. And the moment he does believe, he will have that life.
This is true, in fact, even if a few moments later he encounters some theological legalists who inform him he doesn’t know enough to be saved! Such legalists refuse to justify such an “ignorant” believer. But God has already justified him.
As Paul puts it so clearly in Rom 3:26, God is “just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”