ANNOUNCER: And a very pleasant welcome to you. This is Grace in Focus from the Grace Evangelical Society. This radio broadcast and podcast has the purpose of making clear the whats and hows of eternal salvation, what it is, and how such a gift is received. We say faith alone because that’s what the Bible says. This week and today, how important is a testimony and how important is how you give a testimony? Kathryn Wright and Bob Wilkin have been sharing these things and they continue this topic today. Here’s a question how could your testimony be a better reflection of Jesus Christ? And the discussion will follow right after I tell you about our website, faithalone.org. We’d love you to go there and find out more about the Grace Evangelical Society on faithalone.org. 

Now then Bob and Kathryn with today’s discussion. 

BOB: All right welcome back to Grace and Focus. I’m here again with Kathryn Wright. I’m really enjoying, Kathryn, this discussion of testimonies. 

KATHRYN: Awesome, I’m so glad, it’s a passion project for me. It’s important. 

BOB: All right now when I was about 10 my grandparents had a ranch, a little bit north of Los Angeles. And one time there was this bees nest. I got a stick and I was hitting the bees nest. And I think I got stung about 10 times before I jumped in this big like reservoir they had. I think, you can then, at the end of the last session you kind of hit the bees nest because you said let’s talk about objections and then you give you the example of three testimonies of Paul in the book of Acts in Acts 9, Acts 22, and Acts 26, and even Philippians 3. Since you raised the issue, why don’t you start it us out? What is it that most people say about Saul or Paul and how he gives us an example of before Christ I was this terrible person. Here’s how I came to Christ and here’s what a wonderful person I’m after I came to Christ. 

KATHRYN: Let me just say this I realized that this is a very sensitive topic. We’re really going to the heart of a lot of people in that this is their stories and it can be very difficult and so just know that our intention is not to hurt anybody’s feelings. It’s just we want to look at the Scriptures and have our testimonies reflect what God’s words says so. 

BOB: One of the ways I get people irritated is I tell them they should change their testimony. So for example, if somebody says, like that friend of mine that five years before, I believed that by faith in Christ I was eternally secure I was born again, because my language cleared up and because I got this appetite to read the Bible. 

KATHRYN: Stopped pulling the pigtails. 

BOB: Yeah, stopped pulling the pigtails, stop doing drugs, whatever. I would say no, no change your testimony and say God did a work in my life before I came to faith in Christ. It was a wonderful work just like Cornelius. He did a lot of great things before he came to faith. But then I heard that if you simply believe in Jesus you’re secure forever and I believed that at that point I was born again. The point is when did you know that by faith in Jesus you were secure and a lot of people don’t want to change their testimony and the reason why is, but I had an experience. 

KATHRYN: Yes, there’s an emphasis on experience rather than Christ. 

BOB: So you end up interpreting the Bible in light of your experience instead of interpreting your experience in light of the Bible. 

KATHRYN: Yes, it’s a major problem. So going back to Paul though, we’ll circle back to the experience thing because I think there’s a lot to be said on that topic as well. So maybe next episode but for Paul, again if you were to take a class or you know be on a missions trip they’re going to use Paul’s the example of that three-step process. So step one, Paul was a Pharisee. He persecuted the church and he murdered. He held the coats of the men who stoned Stephen. I mean he just was this monster of a man, right? And then step two he came to faith on the road to Damascus and then step three he became what do we say? Super Christian. And gosh if there’s anybody who exemplifies quote super Christian Paul’s the guy, right? He became a missionary. He became an apostle. He could speak in tongues. He became the greatest missionary that ever lived. He wrote most of the New Testament. I mean and then died a martyr. 

And so you have this extreme on both ends, right? He was a murderer and now he’s the greatest, godliest, missionary, apostle, martyr, writer of the Scriptures that ever lived. Now you need to have a testimony that follows that pattern. Yeah, good luck. And so that’s the first issue is that we are putting Paul as our standard. And so that’s kind of the first question. Is he the standard? Is he the one that we should try to emulate? Is that what we’re called to do? 

BOB: Yeah, but you made a good point talking about Acts 22. You were saying when Paul raised some of these points, he wasn’t raising them to show how bad he was.

KATHRYN: That’s exactly right. So for example, in Acts 22, Paul is arrested, you know, happens to him once or twice. And at the end of chapter 21, he’s arrested, and the mob’s mat and Luke emphasizes something. Originally, Paul was speaking Greek, but then he switches and he begins to speak in Hebrew to the Jews. And then at the beginning of chapter 22, so it’s easy to miss. 

BOB: Yeah, the last verse in 21 says, and when there was a great silence, he spoke to them in the Hebrew language saying, and then we get to 22:1. That other verse is verse 40 of chapter 21. 

KATHRYN: Right. And then in chapter 22, notice verse two. And when they heard that he spoke to them in the Hebrew language, they kept all the more silent. It’s purposeful is the point, right? He begins to speak in their own language. He begins to try and relate to them. And then he starts giving his testimony. 

BOB: Now, by the way, when you say in their own language, a lot of the Jews that were in Jerusalem were trilingual, they would have spoken Greek, they would have spoken Hebrew, they would have spoken Aramaic. Now, maybe a small number would only speak Hebrew, but most everybody spoke Greek, because that was the language of the day. So switching to the language of Judea or the language of Israel, certainly would have had an impact. 

KATHRYN: It was smart. Paul’s being smart. And then he begins to give his testimony and he begins to talk about how he was a Pharisee and how he was taught. 

BOB: And that’s not a bad thing to these people. 

KATHRYN: Exactly. And that’s my point. Everything that Paul says next to his listeners was positive, was a good list. 

ANNOUNCER: Just jumping in here to make you aware of our magazine, Grace in Focus. It is a bi-monthly six issues per year, 48-page magazine, full color. And we want you to subscribe by emailing your name and your snail mail address to ges@faithalone.org. The subscription is free. It can be accessed electronically or it can be actually physically sent to you if you live in the lower 48 United States. That’s our Grace in Focus magazine. Send your name and snail mail address to ges@faithalone.org.

KATHRYN: You know, when we talk about the standard testimony, step one, it’s always describe all of your evil deeds that you did before. Paul did that. Look, he was a Pharisee and he persecuted the church. But is that his intent in this passage? And I would say, no, his intention here, as he’s speaking to Jews, is to relate to them and to say, I used to believe what you once believed. That’s the focus. 

BOB: Yeah, he’s connecting. 

KATHRYN: He’s connecting. And it’s a very positive list. In fact, in Philippians, you mentioned that he goes so far as to say I was blameless. Now, compare that to what our normal testimonies are. If we’re supposed to emulate Paul’s testimony, then are we supposed to be listing all of the godly things we used to do or? I think that the application is actually, that the point here isn’t to list off a list of evil things that he once did as an unbeliever. His goal here is to relate to these people, specifically on the fact that he once believed what they believed. And that’s the focus when you’re talking to an unbeliever, if we could apply it today, is we want to relate to them and say, no, I understand your faulty thinking here. Because I once believed that. And let me tell you, I once believed that if we can, if we can make that connection. 

BOB: And in the middle part, which you’re calling part two, he’s not saying, then I gave my life to Christ, then I prayed the sinner’s prayer, then I walked the aisle. It’s then I met Jesus face to face on the road and believed in Him. 

KATHRYN: Right. We talk about Paul and just how what a great story he is. And it’s unique, you know, it’s a very, you know, I don’t know anybody else who came to face because the Lord met them on the road and blinded them in the light and audibly spoke to them. If you were to say to a child, your testimony needs to look like Paul, I guarantee you, they’re going to walk away feeling very discouraged and like, I can’t compete. 

But I would say that Paul does tell us in what way we can emulate him or how we’ve emulated him and it’s by faith. And he says so to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1. 

BOB: Okay, 1 Timothy 1:16 says, I’m an example of those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 

KATHRYN: Right. I’m in the pattern in this way in what way by belief, not in some sort of experience, but it’s that he’s a pattern in that he believed and those who also believe, follow that. 

BOB: And he believed in Him for something specific in which was the promise of everlasting life. And so yeah, I think if we’re going to call this an objection, it’s a weak objection because, I have a friend who talks about weak sauce. Have you ever heard weak sauce? Well, weak sauce is some kind of expression that means it’s really kind of lame. When I was in college, we called things bogus, something that just wasn’t true. When you make an objection like this, it’s kind of ridiculous because Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. He’s the “justification by faith alone apart from works” man. He’s the one that wrote Ephesians 2:8-9, right? 

KATHRYN: Right, 100%. And I also think that this is a really good example of our traditions can really hurt us in our interpretation, and we need to go back and read through and think, well, how did the readers understand this? How did a 1st century Jew listening to Paul give his testimony? How would he heard that list? You know, we’re coming in with our 21st century mindset, and that’s really difficult. It’s really difficult to lay that aside, and none of us do it perfectly by any means, but I do think this is a really good example of, we really got a strive to divide the worth of truth. 

BOB: That’s a good point. And you know, one of the issues comes around the terms witness and testimony. When a person is a witness in a trial, then what they’re giving is called testimony. But when we’re a witness for Jesus Christ, what we’re supposed to do is tell them about Christ. We’re not supposed to tell them about us. Now, we can use our personal way I came to faith in Christ as a way to illustrate the message of John 3:16. But we’re not the message. Jesus is the message. We’re not the promise. The promise of life is the promise, and it seems to me we get confused because we make it seem like the testimony is the message. No, our testimony should illustrate the message. And by the way, that’s why if your testimony doesn’t come down to, then I believed in Jesus for everlasting life, then you need to redo your testimony because it’s not illustrating John 3:16 or John 5:24 or Ephesians 2:8-9 or Acts 16:31, it needs to illustrate whatever your anchor verse is, right? And we all should have an anchor verse. 

Yeah, maybe in our next episode, we can talk more about experience versus pointing people to the truth. I think that’s a major issue. 

BOB: We’ll do that next time and let’s keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: Thank you both for that great discussion. Are you interested in finding other Free Grace believers just like yourself in your area? Well, you can do that by going to our website, faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org. On our website, we have a church tracker. It’s an easy to use map that will help you locate those other Free Grace churches that might be in your area. So come visit us at the website and take advantage of our free church tracker. It’s at faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org. There are a lot of costs involved in staying on the air. That’s why we so much appreciate our financial partners. If you’d like to learn how to become one, you can find out more by going to faithalone.org. We would love to hear from you. Maybe you’ve got a question, comment, or some feedback. If you do, please don’t hesitate to send us a message. Here’s our email address. It’s radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. 

Next time on Grace in Focus: what if, by the way, you gave your testimony it actually became a false testimony? You wouldn’t want that. Find out more and join us on our next Grace in Focus.