ANNOUNCER: Hello and welcome to Grace in Focus radio podcast. So glad that you’re with us today as we start a new series. Kathryn Wright and Bob Wilkin will be talking about what makes a good testimony and when and why should you share your testimony. Going to be talking about it all week long, so make sure to plan to be with us all this week on Grace in Focus. I also want to tell you about our website at faithalone.org. You’ll find all kinds of resources and helps, books and videos, and also information about our national conference. So be sure to check it out that’s faithalone.org. 

Now about testimonies. Here is today’s discussion. 

BOB: Welcome everyone to Grace in Focus. I’m here with,

KATHRYN: Kathryn Wright. 

BOB: Kathryn, where are you from? 

KATHRYN: I’m from South Carolina. 

BOB: Now your dad is Ken Yates who we recently did quite a few radio programs. 

KATHRYN: Did you all get in trouble? 

BOB: Yeah, I don’t know. You know, it’s always challenging doing radio. I’m reminded of James 3:1, you know, about letting not many become teachers for as such for a strict judgment. Now your dad was in the army during your growing up years, right? 

KATHRYN: Yeah, so I’m an army brat, so I’ve lived all over. That’s why when you first said where I’m from, I was like, well, it’s kind of a hard question really, because I’m not from anywhere. 

BOB: How many places did you live before you were 18? 

KATHRYN: Oh my goodness, that’s, I have no idea. Everywhere from Hawaii to New Jersey. 

BOB: Wow. You lived in Hawaii too? 

KATHRYN: Hawaii is where dad first read The Hungry Inherit. 

BOB: Really? 

KATHRYN: Yeah, so he had Zane in class at DTS and then we, so he’d kind of gotten a little bit of the Free Grace message, but hadn’t really solidified and then we were stationed in Hawaii and that’s when he found it in a little tiny library. I know, it was like what are the odds and so that’s when it kind of really started really going serious for dad. 

BOB: That’s great. 

KATHRYN: Isn’t that amazing? 

BOB: Yes it is. Now you went to what? Luther Rice Seminary is there where you went and what did you do? Master of Divinity, is that what you did? 

KATHRYN: I got my Master’s in Christian studies. I did it all online. 

BOB: That’s the way it is today, right? 

KATHRYN: Everything’s online. 

BOB: So now you and your dad do Zoom classes, what? Three a week, is that right? 

KATHRYN: We’ve got three going which I feel like never advertise it enough, but we do have three Zoom classes a week right now. One is going over end times, which is a pretty lively discussion. We get into all kinds of things. We were just in Revelation 9 talking about what are demons and angels and is there a difference and connecting it to Genesis 6. It was great. We also have one on Saturday and we’re going through the book of Romans using Zane’s commentary, good bit, in that group. Then there’s a ladies bible study that I do that were going through your book, the Ten Most Misunderstood Words, and so that’s been really great. I think we’re going to do Zane’s commentary on 1 and 2 Peter next. 

BOB: Cool, and do all of those have some international people in them? Or are they mostly international? 

KATHRYN: There’s a lot of international. We’ve got people from Mexico, and Germany, and Italy, and Spain, and I mean just, Kenya, we’ve got a lot of our Zambian guys come. It’s a real eclectic group. It’s awesome. I like to think that with all of the craziness of the last few years with Covid, the Zoom classes really were one of the byproducts of it, and I just like, that’s my little silver lining in all of this. Yeah, it’s been really an incredible blessing to connect, because there’s so many people, Free Grace people, we hear all the time. I don’t have a church, I don’t have a community, and this is a way to help them at least grow and get some solid teaching, and then maybe try and reach out to those in their community, so it’s really a lifeline for a lot of friends. 

BOB: Okay, so now you’re going to Cleveland Bible Church, and you’re going to be speaking on testimonies, and what’s the big idea that you’re going to be talking about? I mean, what’s the major point you’re going to be making about, we’re talking about testimonies on how people came to faith in Christ, right? 

KATHRYN: Correct, and making that distinction will be part of it. I have two goals, really. One is to kind of present the pitfalls or some of the misconceptions that come with a lot of testimony presentations, and I think voicing a lot of the unspoken concerns people have or confusions, I think maybe is probably a better way. I think a lot of people in our churches are silently confused when they hear testimonies, and they don’t know why, they don’t know how to articulate it, and so that’s my first goal is to just try and come alongside some folks and say, no, you’re not crazy. There’s a reason why this is, you’re struggling with it. And then my second goal is to hopefully give them tools to give a clearer and confident testimony that’s grounded in the Scriptures, so to equip them to give testimonies that are clear not only for themselves, but also for when they if they are presenting it to an unbeliever as a way to evangelize, so those are my kind of two main goals. 

BOB: That is so good, because I was on a staff with Campus Crusade for Christ, now Cru for four years, and during that time, I gave my testimony a lot of times, and I would teach students that I was discipling how to give their testimony. I found that there was so much confusion, and then I taught evangelism at a college out in East Texas and found there was a lot of confusion among the students I had. In the 35 years that I’ve been headed in Grace Evangelical Society. I just get so much confusion from people. So what kind of confusion do you see? 

KATHRYN: I could give so many stories of interactions like that, but one of the jump start conversations for me when I was thinking through the issue of testimonies, because I did grow up Free Grace, but when I was kind of presented with the standard testimony, I was struggling with it, I couldn’t figure out why. It sounds odd. You would think I would be able to pinpoint it, but I couldn’t. I was like, I’m not really understanding this, and then I had a conversation with a very close friend of mine, and her daughter was about eight at the time and had recently come to faith, and they were all excited, and we were talking about it, and we were having lunch, and we eat lunch, we pay, we go to the car, I’m cranking up the car, and she just bursts into tears. Literally just distraught, and this is somebody who’s raised in the church, is teaching her daughter, salvation, but she’s coming from that standard testimony background, and she said, almost direct quote, because I was shocked, I was like, why are you crying? We just had a great lunch, what’s happening? And she said, I don’t know if my daughter’s testimony is big enough. 

ANNOUNCER: The Grace Evangelical Society’s recently published Old Testament Commentary, Volume One is now available. Find it at faithalone.org/store. It’s where you can also find Bob Wilkin’s latest book, The Gospel is Still Under Siege, as well as many other titles by Grace Evangelical Society authors. Please come by and have a look today. You’ll find the GES store at our website, faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org/store. Now back to today’s topic.

KATHRYN: I don’t know if my daughter’s testimony is big enough. Almost a direct quote. I just was shocked. I couldn’t believe that that was her perspective, because in her mind, she was like, she’s just a little girl. She didn’t have this big moment, you know, the Damascus road experience with the blinding light. And so I sat in that car with her for probably an hour just going over the fact that that’s actually the preferred testimony that we shouldn’t be looking for something that’s big. It really is simply by faith. And a child is the perfect example of that. And that we should be thrilled and not be concerned, you know. 

And so that really opened my eyes to how silent people are in terms of their worries, because this is my best friend. And she wasn’t going to share that necessarily with her pastor or somebody in ministry. She was just sharing that in a car with her best friend. And I just think that there’s a lot of people like that. I think there’s a lot of people who may be feeling embarrassed or feel like my testimony doesn’t sound or doesn’t fit into this mold that is so often presented in churches today. 

And so that really kind of jump started me looking into, okay, what is it about testimonies that’s causing so much confusion from there. I just have wrestled with a couple passages and hopefully we can unpack some of those concerns for folks over the next few episodes and make sure people aren’t, that’s our goal here with GES is just to kind of clarify eternal security and then it doesn’t have to be something big. 

BOB: Yeah, see, I really, how is her expression? My daughter, I’m a concerned she doesn’t have a big enough testimony. 

KATHRYN: Yes. That’s a direct quote. I’m worried she doesn’t have a big enough testimony. 

BOB: What I’ve experienced is quite similar to that. I remember I was, between the time when I was pastoring and I taught at this college in East Texas, there was a short time where I was doing pulpit supply and I spoke at a church in Paris, Texas. 

KATHRYN: I know it well. Did you get to go see the Eiffel Tower with the cowboy hat? 

BOB: I did not see the Eiffel Tower. It may not have existed in 1982 when I was there. I don’t know. 

KATHRYN: You’ve got to go back. 

BOB: I’ll go back. But anyhow, I was there for the morning service and then the evening service and in between a couple had us over for lunch and then we visited with them and they had two boys. I think there were like 13 and 11 or 14 and 12. These people came from a very strong Calvinist perspective and they were correcting me after lunch saying that a person, in order to have final salvation, they must persevere in faith in good works. And he said, we really don’t know if someone saved until we see enough good works. And so they looked over at their boys who were sitting in the room with us and they said, you know, you see our two boys here and we won’t have enough evidence to swear they’re born again until several years after they’ve gone off on their own. And we’ll continue to watch them and look at their works and see how they’re doing. And then we’ll have enough evidence. 

Well, of course, what do the boys think? They think, well, mom and dad think they’re something wrong with us. They think we’re not good enough or something. They think their assurance is based on their works. Well, if that’s the way you think, then your testimony is going to be like that. 

KATHRYN: That’s exactly right. Yes. 

BOB: So I think this is kind of an epidemic. I can give another example from the Shepherd’s Conference, maybe in the next one.

KATHRYN: Yeah, it’s endless. And I could give a similar one, a missionary came and he was raising support with his family then he gave his testimony. And we’ll talk about more about kind of what I consider to be the standard testimony, maybe in our next episode. But he gave his testimony. It was one in which he had been dealing with drugs addiction before he came to faith. And then he came to faith and he no longer struggles with drugs. He had his daughter with him and his daughter came to him later and just said, I don’t know if I’m saved because I still struggle. I don’t want to go to church all the time. That was her issue. She was like sometimes because they were going and raising support and going to all these churches and so it was difficult. You know, they were traveling all the time and she just said, I don’t want to go to church all the time. And so to her, she was internalizing it saying, well, then I must not be saved. 

And so this has this has a big impact on not just the parents but a lot of kids, I think, who are being raised in the church and it can cause them to doubt their salvation. Or I think another common thing that we’re seeing, I think we’re seeing a lot of people say, well, that’s impossible, so just church is a lie. They just walk away. I still want to do that sin or I’m still struggling in this area. Or they hear your testimony and they say, that’s not always true. So I think you kind of have both responses in our churches. 

BOB: Well, we’ll continue on this discussion of testimonies on the next episode and everyone let’s keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: Thank you both for that great discussion. Did you miss an episode of Grace in Focus that you really wanted to hear? Just come to faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org. We have all our past episodes right there on the site. In addition, we have all kinds of free resources available for you. It’s all designed to help you mature and grow in your understanding of Scripture. So come visit us at faithalone.org. That’s faithalone.org. On this program, we keep our requests for financial partners to a minimum. But if you’re interested in becoming a financial partner with Grace in Focus, you can find out how to do that at faithalone.org. Our team is really great about answering questions, comments, and feedback. If you’ve got some, we hope to hear from you. Let me give you our email address so you can do just that. It’s radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. 

Next time on Grace in Focus: what are some of the things that should go into a testimony? And what are some of the misconceptions about testimonies? This is the Grace Evangelical Society. Until next time, let’s keep grace in focus.