ANNOUNCER: Why do we say that there are degrees of torment in the lake of fire? Also coming up, can saving faith be illustrated by trusting in a parachute? We are delighted, friend, that you are joining us today here on Grace in Focus. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Find us at faithalone.org. Lots of information there. We’d also love for you to catch us on our YouTube channel, YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. We are always producing short videos there, and we’d love for you to catch those, subscribe, and like them. And that will encourage other people to watch them too. Thank you, and again, our website is faithalone.org. 

Now with today’s discussion, here are Sam Marr and Bob Wilkin. 

SAM: Alright, Bob, we’ve got a couple questions here. We’ll go, I’ll just read them out, and then we’ll go through them. Our first question is from an Ethiopian listener. Not going to try his first name, but his last name is Johanz. He’s saying that he hears in Ethiopia the gospel, and he means the correct gospel is not preached, but there’s Arminian theology everywhere. So he says that he hopes to do good evangelism in Ethiopia. His question is, why are there degrees of torment in hell or the lake of fire if unbelievers are sent there for unbelief and not for sin? And the context of that is Christ died on the cross, paid the price for sin for the world, so the barrier of sin is no longer there, but in Revelation, when it talks about the Great White Throne Judgment and the book is opened, their works are spoken about there, but they’re not sent to the lake of fire based on how good or bad their works are. They’re sent to the lake of fire based on whether their name is written in the book of life or not. So we would say, if you do not believe in Christ for everlasting life, your name is not written in the book. Therefore, you’re sent to the lake of fire. 

BOB: Johanz, here’s what I would say here. If you look at Revelation 20:11-15, as Sam already mentioned, you see books plural and those books contain all the deeds of all of the people who are going to be judged at this judgment. The books contain works. It doesn’t say anything about sins. Now bad works are sins, but they’re not going to be judged for sin. They’re going to be judged as works and there will surely be good works for people with the Great White Throne Judgment. Good works and bad works and they’re going to be judged. 

Notice in Revelation 20:11, “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it from whose face the earth and heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them,” and then verse 12, “and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,” that’s the Lord Jesus Christ, “and books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life.” So notice how verse 12 distinguishes between the books and the book of life. And it says, “And the dead were judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books.” So notice they’re not judged based on what’s in the book of life. That simply determines who gets into the kingdom and who ends up in the lake of fire. 

But in terms of their judgment it’s based on works and then it talks about “the sea gave up the dead and death and Hades delivered up the dead. Then they were judged each one according to his works.” So again verse 13 affirms that it’s a judgment based on works. And then it says, “death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire and this is called the second death.” And then it says, “anyone not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” So the basis of condemnation is not being in the book. But the degree of torment is completely different. The degree of torment is based on the judgment of works. 

Now by the way this is a principle taught from Genesis to Revelation. It’s the principle mentioned in Galatians 6:7, “Do not be deceived. God is not mocked for whatever man sows, so he shall reap.” There is a principle in Scripture that everyone, believer and unbeliever, is going to be held accountable. Accountability is not just for believers and it’s not just for unbelievers. Believers will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ to determine our degree of eternal reward, and whether we rule with Christ and if so, how much will we rule with Christ? Unbelievers will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment to determine what degree of torment they have reaped based on what they sowed in this life. 

We should not think believers will only have good works at the Judgment Seat of Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says whether good or bad. And we should not think that unbelievers will only have bad works at the Great White Throne Judgment. Unbelievers do good works. They give them no merit with God. They certainly can’t open the door to the kingdom. But they will determine their degree of torment. 

So in answer to Johanz’ question, we need to distinguish between accountability based on the works we do and our eternal destiny based on whether we believe or don’t believe. And by the way, the fact that Jesus died on the cross for our sins doesn’t mean we’re not accountable in this life and it doesn’t mean we’re not accountable after this life. Both believers and unbelievers get judged in this life for what we do. Blessings for obedience, curses for disobedience. 

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SAM: All right, and then we’ve got another question that I think we can answer pretty quickly here. This question is from David and he’s saying, I’m struggling to wrap my head around saving faith. One analogy I have come across is the parachute analogy. Can faith in Jesus for eternal life be likened to trusting in a parachute to save you from falling to your death out of a plane? 

BOB: Okay, so can saving faith be illustrated? 

SAM: Yeah, likened to trusting in a parachute. 

BOB: Okay, well, here’s a problem I have with all of these types of illustrations. A, this isn’t found in Scripture. Of course, there weren’t any parachutes in the first century. But secondly, if you’re going to use an illustration that’s not found in Scripture, pick one that’s consistent with the actual illustrations we’re given. Wouldn’t it make the most sense, don’t you think, if Jesus illustrated saving faith by talking about drinking living water, maybe we would use His illustrations since that’s an inspired illustration. But then the second thing Jesus uses the illustration of the bread of life. Well, everybody eats something. You could say, look, one nibble of the bread of life as long as you partake of it, you’ll never hunger again, one drink of the living water, one sip and you’ll never thirst again. Those are biblical illustrations. Also, Jesus used the illustration of coming to him or he used the illustration of the uplifted serpent in Numbers 22, and he said, so shall the Son of Man be lifted up and everyone who looks to Him will live. 

SAM: And so examples like that, that uplifted serpent and the sheep gate and other things like that are ones where maybe those wouldn’t be as good for evangelism today, but water and bread are so universal. Like you said, it doesn’t have to be bread. It could be any kind of food. I mean, every human has to relate to that because you have to eat and you have to drink. So I think Jesus intentionally shows the two most universal symbols of life that He could have. 

So following that line of logic with the parachute analogy, there’s probably a way that you could use it to be successful, but the nature of a parachute is you’re going to hit the ground eventually. 

BOB: Right, here’s why I don’t like this illustration because it is significantly different than one bite of bread or one drink of water. For one thing, what Jesus promises is guaranteed and eternal. There’s no parachute in the world that’s 100% reliable. Wonderful parachutists that have had thousands of successful jumps both their primary and secondary chutes fail. It’s rare, but sometimes it happens. And there’s no guarantee that if you jump out of a plane with a parachute, you’re going to land safely on the ground. And as you say, even if you survive it, you may break your leg, you may break your neck, you may get killed just by hitting the ground too hard. 

The other problem with it is we’re not trusting the parachute. We’re believing in the parachute. If you want to say trusting, okay, then what you mean is this is something less than certain, but I’m going to rely upon this to get me to the ground safely. I know it’s not a guarantee. Well, that’s quite different than Jesus because He absolutely guarantees that the one who believes in Him will never hunger, never thirst, never die, never perish. And I don’t like to use trust because it’s not quite a synonym. I trust a doctor to do his best, but I know he may fail. I trust a dentist to do his best, but I know that he may fail. But with Jesus, I do more than trusting Him. I believe Him. I’m convinced there’s no doubt about it that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. 

The parachute illustration is a variation of the chair, unless you sit in the chair, you don’t really believe it or the airplane. The airplane, the Niagara Falls tightrope, wheelbarrow illustration, Blondin, all of those say you’ve got to do something other than believe. In other words, let’s say I believe that parachute will save me. Well, if that was like Jesus, then I’d instantly be saved. I don’t have to put it on. The minute I believe it, I’m saved. That’s why it’s not the same. 

So David, I would encourage you, I mean, it’s great to be trying to think up illustrations. But if you’ve already got an inspired illustration, why not use that? And if you want to make up a different one, make sure it’s consistent with the inspired illustrations or make sure it’s consistent with the Scripture you’re tying it to. 

SAM: And whatever illustration you use, even if you use the parachute one or the airplane or the chair, that’s fine as long as you’re also supplying Scripture. Don’t let your illustration evangelism be a substitute for John 3:16, John 5:24, 11:27, use the illustration in tandem with Scripture. That way you really are doing it the way Christ did it. 

BOB: All right, but I have one suggestion, Sam, if you’re going to do that, then criticize your own illustration. Now, here’s what’s wrong with the illustration I gave you, because the illustration requires more than believing. And so this chair illustration is wrong because the moment I believe the chair will hold me up if it’s like Jesus, I’d be held up. And the moment I believe the parachute will save me, I’ll be safely on the ground. I don’t have to put it on. And so if you’re going to use those illustrations, criticize them. 

All right, well, thanks so much. And what are we going to remember? To keep grace in focus. Thanks 

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On our next episode: what about the unpardonable sin? Can I be sure my faith is the right kind? Please join us and in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus.