ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Grace in Focus. The Free Grace position and the Lordship Salvation position—is there any way that they are essentially the same and can therefore be considered compatible? Why or why not? Let’s have a discussion about this today. And we’re glad that you’re with us, friend. Grace in Focus is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society located in North Texas. Our website is faithalone.org. There you can find out about our online seminary with full scholarships available for students maintaining good academic standing and it is a place where you can earn an MDiv degree. The application and registration window is open now for our fall semester and we’d love you to go to our website and find out more about the Grace Evangelical Theological Seminary. There are also a lot of other things there that you might want to look at about us. That’s faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s discussion here are Bob Wilkin and Sam Marr. 

SAM: All right Bob, we’ve got something a little bit different today rather than just answering questions from the email, we were sent a video by someone from a channel called Smart Christians Channel and the video is titled “Free Grace versus Lordship.” I watched the video. It’s a good video. I like the way he explains because he has Scripture up. I don’t know if he’s using Logos or what but he’s got the English and the Greek up and he’s showing exactly what he’s talking about. He does his best to give an honest critique of both Lordship and Free Grace. He says let’s not use insults like “cheap grace” or I can’t remember what he says about Lordship. 

So he’s trying to give a fair shake of both sides but he does hold to maybe you’d say a mild form of Lordship salvation because what he believes and what he makes very clear in the video is the act of regeneration being born again or whatever, that is by faith alone. It’s Christ’s doing it, it’s just by faith, by belief. Works don’t play a part in the salvation. But you have to have good works as a result of that. If you are born again then you will be fruitful. You will do good works. You will, a lot of verses that we’re going to look at, those verses have to be true about you, otherwise you didn’t truly believe in the first place. 

He uses the word “true believer” because he strongly believes there are true believers and there’s false believers. You think you did but if you fall away that means you didn’t and he doesn’t get into assurance. He doesn’t get into eternal security in this video. So that’s not his priority. He’s just trying to explain what do these two things believe and he kind of makes it like a kumbaya, we should really be agreeing on these things, Free Grace and Lordship. But at the end of the video it’s kind of like Free Grace—you’re right about one of these things and wrong about 50 others and Lordship you’re right about everything. So that’s what he’s convinced of so that’s what he’s talking about. But we’ll go through most of what he said and I’ve got some quotes from him from his video. 

BOB: And it’ll probably take more than one show because since there’s so many different passages he’s got, this may be five shows. 

SAM: Yeah, before we get into it I want to say this too. I think part of the reason why we’re going to spend so much time on this is because this is a guy who is very, I think he’s a good student of God’s word. He has an exegetical approach. These aren’t just talking points. This is what he is convinced of and I think he’s a very convincing speaker. So people are going to watch his video and say, wow, this guy made really good points. I think he’s right about this. So I think we should offer the exact same thing, but from our perspective and with a better understanding of Scripture and a more accurate interpretation of some of these verses. 

BOB: Yeah. And from what you’re saying, the guy’s pretty irenic. In other words, he doesn’t come across as a hostile kind of guy. 

SAM: No, he’s very gracious. He’s very cool-headed about these things. But I think he’s just misguided in a lot of the passages that he’s talking about. So let’s start with 2 Timothy 2:13. This is the first one. 

BOB: Yeah, we probably ought to do 11 to 13. 

SAM: Right. I think this is the first one really that he gets into in his video. And I’ve got the NIV pulled up. 

BOB: Yeah, because the NIV translation, it’s a bad one, but I think it does support his interpretation. 

SAM: Right. I don’t remember. I’d have to go back and watch the video. I don’t remember which version he uses. I don’t think he even uses the NIV, because I don’t remember him talking about it. But starting in verse 11, it says, “Here is a trustworthy saying, if we died with Him, we will also live with Him. If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful for He cannot disown Himself.” And that’s, the NIV translates it “disown.” What does the NKJV say? 

BOB: Yeah, the NKJV says, “If we deny him, He will also deny us.” 

SAM: Right. So disown sounds a lot harsher, and it sounds a lot more like you’re no longer a child of God or you’ve lost your salvation. 

BOB: And by the way, if this guy’s pulling up the Greek, he should be pointing out that I believe it’s arneomai that’s used here for “deny.” And the same word is used when Peter denied Jesus three times. So did Peter disown Jesus three times? I don’t think so. He denied him. And by the way, in Matthew 10:32-33, did this speaker, by the way, bring up Matthew 10:32-33? That’s where Jesus said, “He who confesses Me before men, him will I confess before My Father who is in heaven. He who denies Me before men, him will I deny before My father who is in heaven.” Almost every commentator says that 2 Timothy 2:12 is Paul’s interpretation of Matthew 10:32-33. With the first line, “if we endure, we shall also reign with Him,” that is explaining if we confess Him, He will also confess us. 

SAM: Right. And that’s where he spends, he doesn’t spend a whole lot of time on the passage. But that’s what he talks about, that if we endure, we will also reign. And he doesn’t talk about what reigning with him means. He assumes that reigning means being in heaven or getting into the kingdom. And so what he’s saying is you have to endure in order to go to heaven. 

BOB: That’s the prevalent view in evangelicalism today.

ANNOUNCER: You’re invited to subscribe to the Grace Evangelical Society’s YouTube channel. You will find our Monday, Wednesday and Friday videos there enlightening and encouraging, and even probably humorous at times if you like Bob Wilkin’s humor. Indeed you will get Biblical truth about Free Grace themes like faith alone for eternal salvation and why  the Grace Evangelical Society is zero point Calvinistic. We come your way three times a week at the Grace Evangelical YouTube channel. Check it out and tell a friend about the Grace Evangelical Society.

BOB: Most people hold that view, but if you hold that view, you do not know where you’re going when you die. Because you have to admit that if the Apostle Paul was unsure in 1 Corinthians 9:27 that he would persevere, then we don’t know if we’re going to persevere. And if we don’t know if we’re going to persevere and only those who persevere are those who are going to reign with Christ, which in his view means get into the kingdom or go to heaven when you die, then I don’t know where I’m going. 

By the way, that leads to a terrible way to evangelize. Do you think it’s really appealing to come up to people and say, I don’t know where I’m going when I die. And if you have a few minutes, I can help you be unsure of your eternal destiny too. I don’t think that would be real and comforting, but let’s explain 2 Timothy. 

SAM: Well, I want to mention the other thing he does talk about is on verse 13 where it says, “if we are faithless He remains faithful,” the reason he goes here is because he’s attacking the Free Grace argument that if I believe in Jesus Christ, I receive everlasting life. Later my life, I can lose my faith, become an atheist, agnostic, Muslim, whatever, and everlasting life doesn’t depart from me. I’m still born again. I’m still regenerated still everlasting life. He’s saying in light of this verse, that can’t be true because right here it says, “If we are faithless, He remains faithful and He can’t disown himself.” He’s just saying when it says “He is faithful,” all that means is that’s an attribute of God. God is always faithful, no matter what, night and day, rain or shine, He’s faithful, but it doesn’t have anything to do with him being faithful towards us. 

BOB: Right. But there’s so many problems with this view. For example, verse 11, “If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him.” Well, every believer has died with Him, Romans chapter 6 and Galatians 2:20, many other passages. The moment we believe in Him, we’ve died with Him. Therefore, it’s guaranteed we shall also live with Him. There’s no maybe about it. And then verse 13, it’s been said that verses 11 and 13 are bookends on this passage. Verse 13, if we are faithless as believers, He remains faithful. He cannot deny himself. What this person is interpreting, he can’t deny, that if we deny him, he will deny us. Well, that’s true. But the other part is also true that if we’ve died with Him, we shall also live with Him. He can’t deny the fact of John 3:16 that whoever believes in Him will never perish, but has everlasting life. So he’s taking, he remains faithful to condemn us, but it’s faithful to keep us secure. 

And by the way, verse 12, as I mentioned, is explaining Matthew 10:32-33, which are eternal rewards verses. What they’re saying is, if we endure to the end of our lives in our confession of Christ, which primarily refers to being part of a local assembly that’s clearly proclaiming and glorifying Christ, if we do hold fast in our confession, then He’s going to confess us before the Father in terms of eternal rewards. It’ll be, “Well done, good and faithful servant; you’ve been faithful.” I’ll have authority over ten cities or have authority over five cities. That’s where it says, if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. But the second half is denial of ruling with Him. If we deny Him, he will also deny us. It’s not denying that we’re believers. It’s denying us what the first half says, because these two halves are antithetically parallel. If we endure will reign, if we don’t endure, we won’t reign. He’s totally misunderstood 11-13, 11 and 13 are twin pillars of eternal security. And verse 12 is saying, if we endure, we’re going to reign with Him forever. That’s a reward. If we don’t endure, we’re not going to reign with Him forever. We’re going to miss out on the reward. But even if we’re faithless, He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself. He’s already promised us the free gift of eternal life. 

So this first verse that he’s citing, not too promising for the way he’s going to handle these other verses, because these verses actually strongly support the Free Grace position. Of course, all verses do, but some are harder to explain than others, but this—not hard to explain. It’s hard to mess this one up. 

SAM: Yeah, Lordship, works-based theology has a systemic problem of interpreting every single verse in the New Testament as being related to salvation. There’s no separation. Every verse in Scripture is a nail and all it’s got is a hammer. There’s nothing else. And we’re going to see that through all of these, because so many of the passages we’re going to look at are great encouragements to believers about how to live righteously, or how to follow in Christ’s example, or how to store up rewards in heaven, and he’s going to miss it every single time. 

BOB: That’s right. So, well, let’s keep grace in focus.

ANNOUNCER: Be sure to check out our daily blogs at faithalone.org. They are short and full of great teaching, just like what you’ve heard today. Find them at faithalone.org/resources/blog. We would love to hear from you. Maybe you’ve got a question, comment, or some feedback. If you do, please don’t hesitate to send us a message. Here’s our email address. It’s radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. And when you do, very important. Please let us know your radio station call letters and the city of your location.

On our next episode: John 3:16, John 3:36, do either of these support Lordship salvation? Come back and join us again and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.