Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Are enduring to the end and being in fellowship with God when our earthly life comes to an end, the same thing. How does enduring to the end relate to forgiveness and fellowship? Thank you, friend, for joining us today. This is Grace in Focus. Glad you’re with us. We are a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website address is faithalone.org. There’s lots to learn about us there. We hope you’ll visit. We also have short YouTube videos released weekly at YouTube Grace Evangelical Society. Please plan to be at our National Annual Conference 2026. The dates are May 18th through the 21st. Get all the information you need to get registered at faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates. 

KEN: And we’ve been doing a few sessions on forgiveness and Bob and I, between sessions, are having some discussions on this. This is a hot topic. And I know we’ve done two or three sessions here, and there’s a reason for it, because it comes up all the time in our classes and in our Zoom meetings and everything else. 

BOB: Yeah, but this is stressful, Ken. It’s stressful because you’re raising things that don’t get raised in Seminary. I mean, in seven years of Dallas Seminary, I never heard any of this discussed. 

KEN: Neither did I. 

BOB: All right. So, and you have another doctorate from what? Erskine or something? KEN: Right. And we never discussed it. 

BOB: And a master’s and a doctorate from Dallas. And you have another master’s from Southern, right? 

KEN: Right. That was never discussed. We never do. I have attended because I was in the military and they sent me. I’ve attended more seminary classes than anybody in the history of the world. And we never. It’s probably true because they paid for it and they said, go, so I said, sure, I’ll go. And you’re right, we never discussed these things. And now some people would say, well, we’re just discussing what, minutia, but it’s not really minutia. It’s really, these are very practical things. And also how we interpret so many passages of Scriptures. 

BOB: But now you got another tough one today because you want to talk about what is the difference between enduring to the end of our lives. Paul says, “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him,” 2 Timothy 2:12. What’s the difference between that and being in fellowship with God at the end of our life? Are they the same or are they different?KEN: Well, that’s a great question. And that’s one of the things Bob and I were talking between sessions. What if I’m, what if I endure, I’m faithful, I’m going to church, but I’m in another area of my life and we’ll just pick one. Let’s say in my marriage, for example, I’m in the far country. Okay, I’m out of fellowship, but I’m enduring. You know, I’m, if you asked me. 

BOB: So a lot of people would say that’s not possible because unless you’re in fellowship with God, you’re not enduring, but you’re saying, and I think you’re probably right, but we’re on, the ice is thin here. I hear the cracking noise. But I think if we look at a lot of different Scripture and we’ll talk about some in a minute, I think you’re on the right track. So what you would say is it’s possible that a person could die out of fellowship with God and yet at the Judgment Seat of Christ hear, “Well done good and faithful servant.” And you’re going to rule with Me over so many cities. 

KEN: Right. So if a person endures, they are a faithful witness for the Lord, 

BOB: Which is a big part of what enduring is, right? 

KEN: Right. I’m looking for the Lord’s return. 

BOB: Okay, so let me give you an example of a verse. Now look, you all need to think about this and pray about this because we’re admittedly moving into some very uncharted territory here. We’re like Columbus trying to find India and he ends up in the United States and he calls the people he meets in the United States Indians because he thinks they’re in India, right? But they weren’t Indians. 

KEN: So Bob and I are in India, right now. 

BOB: Right. We’re in the spiritual India, except we’re really in the United States. But anyway, here’s what I would suggest. You remember Matthew 10:32-33 where Jesus says, “He who confesses me before men, Him will I confess before My Father who is in heaven, right? Right. And what about the denial part? 

KEN: “He who denies Me before men. I’ll deny him before My Father.” 

BOB: Okay. So 2 Timothy 2:12, lots of commentators say, is Paul’s interpretation of that passage. And why would they say that? Why would they say, if we endure, we will reign with him. If we deny him, he will deny us. 

KEN: Right. Well, I mean, you can see if I confess Him, then Paul says, I’ll reign with Him. And if I deny Him before men, then I won’t reign with Him. 

BOB: And Jesus said, He would deny Me before Him and Him will I deny before My Father who is in heaven. Well, Paul’s interpreting that to say, if I’m not continuing to confess Christ, I’m denying him, then He’s going to deny me the privilege of ruling with him. It’s not a matter of whether I’m born again or not. I think the NIV translates that, if we deny him, he will disown us. No. He’s not going to disown us. And that’s not what the word means. The word means to deny. And if we deny Him, he will deny us. I think actually the NIV says, if we disown him, he will disown us, but it’s deny, deny. 

Hodges made the point when I was talking to him one time. I said, why doesn’t it say, if we confess Him, we will reign with him. If we deny Him, He will deny us because Matthew 10:32 says confess and deny. So why does this say endure and deny? And Zane’s answer was because what Paul is thinking of here is broader than merely someone who is going to rule with Christ more than just, okay, I’m enduring in my confession. But this is also a person who’s continuing to walk in the light. 

KEN: So abiding in Him. 

BOB: And abiding in Him. Then that raises the question, however, what if a person is confessing Him? And maybe they’re walking in the light in most, but there’s one area of their life, one room, they’re not really walking in the light. 

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BOB: And I think it gets a bit tricky because of, if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. You have the same thing in Revelation 2:26. Remember, “He who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him, I will give authority over the nations,” or the Gentiles. Well, it seems to me that’s two things—overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil, and keeping My works to the end. So I guess what I’m saying is, I’m at this point somewhat undecided that if a person is, let’s say, in the spiritual far country, but they’re still going to church, they’re still part of the worshiping community, they’re still acknowledging Christ, but yet they’re somehow in the spiritual far country with that— KEN: In one particular area of their life or maybe a couple areas. 

BOB: Yeah. And I don’t know because I tend to, even as I say the question, I think if someone is in the far country, then they’re not part of the confessing church, or if they are, they’re going to be disfellowshipped or excommunicated pretty soon because the elders are going to go, wait a minute here, you’re living in sin over here, willfully living in sin, and we can’t tolerate that, so you’re not going to be part of our assembly until you repent. 

Even as I asked the question, I think more what we’re talking about, I think, is more an issue where someone hasn’t yet confessed to sin they’re aware of, and they’re kind of mad at God. Yeah, I know that sin, so maybe in one sense they’re confessing it, but they’re going, I’m mad at you, God, or something like that, well, I don’t know. 

KEN: We talked in an earlier episode about 2 Corinthians 5:10, the bad works. Could it be, as we’re talking about this, that someone who is, okay, we’re just going to use the example, he’s in the far country when it comes to his relationship with his wife, since we’ve been using that example, okay, but he’s faithful, you know, he’s faithful in other areas, he’s going to church, he’s leading a Bible study, you know, and he’s studying the Scriptures, then he’s doing these things, 

BOB: Okay, so if that’s the case, then the person is probably not out of fellowship with God, but he’s probably out of his fellowship with his spouse, and that may not be his fault, or completely his fault. I remember a famous pastor, I won’t mention his name, but he was very big on the fact that a divorced pastor should step down from the ministry, and then his wife had psychological and psychiatric problems, and so she divorced him, and he stayed in the pastorate. Some people were going, well, what happened to the part about if you’re divorced, you can’t be a pastor anymore, and his thinking was, yes, but I didn’t do that. I didn’t want the divorce, I didn’t seek the divorce, and I think he even opposed the divorce, but in the United States today, if your spouse wants to divorce you, in most cases, they can, right?
KEN: Well, it’s interesting, since we bring this up, but you read stories of what I will call influential evangelicals, who had terrible family relationships. You’ll read about these guys, and of course, okay, we’re getting it after the fact and history, what’s true, and what’s not, but let’s just assume that some of these stories are true, so these guys who are great teachers of the Bible or whatever, they had horrible relationships either with their wives, or their children, or whatever the case may be. 

BOB: I can give you an example, one of our profs at Dallas Seminary, I won’t mention, but he passed, and they had a memorial service for him, and some of his kids got up and said what a terrible father he was. Well, that’s horrible, I don’t—shame on the children for saying that, but on the other hand, it’s not automatic that because a person is a good Bible teacher or a good pastor or whatever, that they’re necessarily a good parent or a good spouse, and it’s not because, like in the case of that faculty member, I knew him fairly well, I think he was doing his best. Some of the responsibility falls on the children who are saying this, so you have to wonder if they’re even being accurate in what they said, but part of it is, we’re flawed people, right? In the case of that one, I think he was like I was, that he grew up in an alcoholic family, and that puts some real scars on you. 

I guess I would say if a person is in the spiritual far country, yeah, then they’re also not confessing Christ, but a person might have some area where they’re really not doing well in their Christian life in that area. They haven’t grown in that area enough yet, even if they’ve been a Christian for decades, but yet they are a confessing Christian, they are part of a local assembly, and they are walking in the light to the best of their ability, and I would think that person’s going to rule and reign with Christ in spite of the fact that they’re a cracked pot in some area, right? 

KEN: I’ll tell you what I think. I’m glad the Lord is going to be the one who judges all, and that’s the bottom line. 

BOB: And the thing is, the Scriptures don’t answer every question that we’re going to have, but I think the point is, none of you should be thinking, wow, I don’t know if I’ve confessed every sin in my life, so maybe I’m not going to rule and reign with Him. That’s not the right way to think, that’s a legalistic way to think. The right way to think is He loves me, He cares for me. I love Him. I want to please Him. I’m acknowledging the sins I’m aware of, and if I have some area of my life that I’m struggling in, I’m still seeking to do my best, and I don’t give up just because I’ve got an issue with anxiety, or I’ve got an issue with anger, I’ve got an issue with something else. I still keep growing and maturing.

KEN: And so hopefully this will stimulate some of your own thinking and some of these issues. Well, until next time, folks, remember, keep grace in focus. 

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And on our next episode: the difference between cleansing and forgiveness. Come back and join us again, and in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus.