Transcript

ANNOUNCER: In 1 John 1:9, there’s confession and two results come from that. One is forgiveness and the other is cleansing. What is the difference, if any, between forgiveness and cleansing? Hello, friend. We’re glad you’re joining us today on Grace In Focus. This is the radio broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org. There you can give to this listener-supported ministry and there’s lots to learn about us there also. Don’t miss our upcoming national annual conference May 18th through the 21st. All the details are there on the website faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates. 

KEN: Bob, we had a question by Tom in our last session dealing with 1 John 1:9. And he didn’t ask this in the question, but I wanted to discuss it. I was hoping we had time because I wanted to pick your brain on this. In 1 John 1:9, Tom had asked about, will sin be brought up at the Judgment Seat of Christ based upon 1 John 1:9. But there’s another issue in 1 John 1:9 that comes up pretty regularly. And he didn’t ask specifically about this, but I’m going to. 

And in 1 John 1:9, I’m going to read that verse again: “If we confess our sins, He’s faithful and just to forgive us our sins.” And there we’re talking about the sins we confess, right? So we confess our sins when they become known to us, He forgives them. And then it says, “and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” You and I were both taught, I think, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, that what this verse is saying is, or at least I’ve been told, and these are by great Bible teachers and people that I have a lot of respect for, they say something like this. Okay, what is the difference between forgiving and cleansing? Because John says here, if we confess our sins, He will forgive us of our sins, forgive us the sins we confess. And cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

I remember years ago, I was told that basically those are the same thing. That we’re forgiven of the sins we confess.  And then we’re also forgiven of the sins that we’re unaware of. So I become aware. 

BOB: And that’s what cleansing is. 

KEN: That’s what cleansing is. 

BOB: And by the way, we both went to Dallas Seminary, different decades. I was there between, well, we overlap. I’m such an old codger.

KEN: Because you’re older than me. 

BOB: So I was there between 78 and 82 for my masters and you were there between what, 83 and 87? So we almost overlapped. In fact, I was in the doctoral program while you were in your ThM program. I don’t remember a single professor discussing whether these were the same thing or different things. It was just always understood they were the same. Is that the way you were? 

KEN: I would say so. 

BOB: Even Zane Hodges. I don’t remember him ever discussing the difference between forgiveness and cleansing. 

KEN: I think he’s the first person that I ever remember, with me anyway, talking about this. And I definitely got the impression he saw them as basically synonymous. So the same thing that we’re forgiven and then we’re forgiven of the sins we’re not aware of.

BOB: Okay. So I would tell you this. This is my confession. You ready? So up until maybe a year and a half ago, I thought forgiveness and cleansing were the same thing.

KEN: I did too. 

BOB: In fact, I would go to John 13 and the foot washing. And I would say that illustrates the forgiveness of 1 John 1:9. But do you know that John 13 where Jesus washes the disciples feet does not use the word forgiveness? What word does it use? 

KEN: Clean, right? 

BOB: Yeah, he says you are clean, but not all of you, which was a double meaning. It meant Judas wasn’t clean, but he also meant that Peter was clean in an overall sense, but he needed ongoing cleansing of his feet. That’s the idea that, believers who are in fellowship with God are clean, but they need periodic forgiveness—Well, periodic cleansing, I shouldn’t say forgiveness—see there, I slipped back into it. And so for about the last year and a half, I’ve been trying to figure out first of all, what is forgiveness and secondly, what is cleansing. I don’t think the same thing. So let’s first discuss what is forgiveness? 

KEN: Well, forgiveness would be the, okay, I’ve committed us in and I’m out of fellowship and there is a restoration of fellowship when I am forgiven. 

BOB: Okay. So I’m questioning that too. I would say based on the difference between repentance and confession, that confession is for the purpose of continuation of fellowship and repentance is for restoration of fellowship. You see my difference? 

KEN: Sure. Okay. 

BOB: So let me give you an example. We had our conference in 1990. I think it was seven or eight and Zane Hodges was supposed to give a talk about repentance and Zane had a massive heart attack. He gave me his paper, he’d already written it, and I presented it, but then I had to field questions. Jim Congdon came up and he said this. He said, your argument is that repentance is not a condition of eternal life because repentance is not found in the gospel of John and the purpose of the gospel of John is evangelistic. Am I right so far? And I said right. So because repentance is not found in John and the purpose is evangelistic, therefore it’s not a condition. He said, now what’s the purpose of first John? I said, fellowship with God, 1 John 1:1-4. He said, I agree. He said, how many times does repentance occur in first John? I said, I don’t think it occurs at all. He said, so aren’t you trapped now into saying that repentance is not a condition for fellowship with God? And I stumbled and bumbled around. And afterwards I talked to Zane Hodges about it and Zane said he was correct. The condition of ongoing fellowship with God is confession, not repentance. 

KEN: So the person who has gone to the far country of sin. 

BOB: Where do you get that? Luke 15, the prodigal son. 

KEN: Right. And so the believer who has lifestyle of sin, it’s become habitual. 

BOB: He’s not in fellowship with his father when he’s in spiritual Las Vegas. 

KEN: Right. But let’s get a little more technical then. So when I sin, would you say it’s proper to say as a believer, I sin, and in that act. I am out of fellowship with God. 

BOB: No. What’s accurate to say in light of 1 John 3:6-10, that act is not an act of abiding in Christ. But it’s different than being out of fellowship. 

ANNOUNCER: It’s coming, it’ll be here before you know it. What am I talking about? The Grace Evangelical Society’s National Conference 2026, May 18th through the 21st at Camp Copass, an absolutely beautiful campground in North Texas right on the lake with lots of recreation, great food, a great place to stay, wonderful fellowship, and wonderful Free Grace Bible teaching. Information and online registration now at faithalone.org/events. First timers waive registration fees. Faithalone.org/events.

BOB: Let’s say I go over to this light switch and I turn it off. Did your kids ever like turn the light switch on and off on and off on? Sure. I think people’s view is believers are in and out of fellowship moment by moment. So I commit a sin. I’m out of fellowship. Now I confess the sin. I’m back in fellowship. And so a lot of people think I made well die out of fellowship with God, right? Because if I commit some sin and I’m unaware of it, I’m out of fellowship with God, according to that system, right? Right. Until I’ve confessed some known sin. So what I would say is the issue in confession is continuation of fellowship. And the issue of repentance is restoration of fellowship. 

I remember Zane Hodges said to me one time, he thought a person could go years or decades in fellowship with God. Unbroken fellowship with God, not needing to repent.

KEN: We’re not needing to repent, okay, but would we say, again, this is just for all of us as we’re talking through this, I sin and I don’t confess it. 

BOB: And I’m aware of it. 

KEN: Right. I’m aware of it. 

BOB: Okay, so then what happens is if I sin and I’m aware of it, at some point, I have now let the sun go down on my sin, so to speak, Paul says, don’t the sun go down on your anger, right? If you do, well, then you’re going to be out of fellowship with your spouse or whoever it is, plus you’re going to be out of fellowship with God. Same thing is true with sin. If I commit a sin and I’m aware of it, there’s probably some grace period. I don’t know how many seconds or minutes it is from the time I recognize it’s sin, till the time I need to acknowledge it and I don’t think acknowledging it means I have to get on my knees and have some formal prayer. It means I am acknowledging to God I have sin. If I don’t do that, then after some short period of time, I become out of fellowship with God and now I need to repent. 

KEN: Well, it seems to me then that what we’re saying is there’s going to be an overlap in this. 

BOB: There certainly would be some area where people go, well, do I need to confess or do I need to repent? I mean, people ask me that. My answer is unless you have intentionally rebelled against God, then you need to confess. 

KEN: Okay. Here’s an example. Okay. Now, of course, I’ve never done this, but others may have. Let’s say you do something and you get mad at your wife. Now that’s never happened to me. 

BOB: You lying dog!

KEN: Okay, but let’s just say a believer does that, 

BOB: You mean, you haven’t been mad at your wife since you’ve been here. 

KEN: What I’m saying, I’m trying to think of a real life situation. So we’re in a situation like that and you’re convicted of it. You say, okay, I was a dirt bag. Hey, I need to apologize for it. But then I say no, I’m still mad at her. That happens with a lot of people. So would that person be out of fellowship? 

BOB: I would say it really depends because we’re vessels of clay, right? If my desire is to please the Lord. And my desire is to be back in fellowship with my spouse, my wife. But I’m at a loss on how to do that because… 

KEN: Or no, you’re just mad. 

BOB: Well, but see, being mad is not by itself sin. If you’re having outbursts of wrath, you need to be confessing those outbursts of wrath. I mean, I’ve had some doozies in my life. I broke a car windshield. I got so mad with Sharon and I arguing. I just hit it with my fist and the whole thing shattered. I came out of an alcoholic family. So I, I’ve been through a lot of counseling and I’ve gotten over a lot of my anger. But early on in our marriage, I never hit Sharon. I never pushed your, you know, whatever, fortunately, praise God, I didn’t do those things. But I would get to the point where I was so angry that I would hit something. 

KEN: Okay, so, so my question there, let’s go. Were you out of fellowship? 

BOB: I would say no. And the reason I would say no is my desire was to please the Lord. My desire was to be in fellowship with Sharon and with the Lord. But there were times when I was at a loss of what to say or do. I would say I’m sorry Sharon. I’m sorry for what I did. I’m sorry I broke the windshield or I’m sorry I did threw this thing or whatever it was. But it took a lot of counseling and I had to learn there’s a difference. There are degrees of anger and maybe we should continue this in the next show. 

KEN: Sure, I think we should because to me it seems like there’s a million examples like this. And so when is it that we’re out of fellowship and need to repent? I really think that’s the issue here. 

BOB: All right, so we’ll get into that and we’ll talk about degrees of anger too because this is something I’ve both experienced and learned and it’s helped me a lot. 

KEN: Well, I think this is important. So let’s do that on the second session.  And remember keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: We would love to know where you are when you are listening to us. Please take a short minute to send us the call letters of this station and the city where you are listening and how many times a week you listen. Thank you. You will be helping us with our stewardship. Send it to radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. We are so thankful for our financial partners who keep us on the air. Every gift is tax deductible and very much appreciated. If you’d like to find out how you can give, go to faithalone.org. On our website, we have a church tracker. It’s an easy to use map that will help you locate those other free grace churches that might be in your area. So come visit us at the website and take advantage of our free church tracker. It’s at faithalone.org.

Now, friend, we’re glad you joined us all this week for grace in focus. We wish you a very pleasant weekend, a great experience of worship, learning and fellowship at a Bible-believing, Bible-teaching church. Then come back and join us again on Monday for more Grace in Focus.