Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Grace in Focus and our eschatology series. We are in Revelation at the seventh seal and the first four trumpet judgments. And as we begin in Revelation 8:1-4, who is praying and why are they praying? How is the seventh seal related to the seven trumpets? Stay tuned, we’ll talk about it today. So glad you’ve joined us, friend. This is Grace in Focus; it is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our offices are in North Texas and you can find out more about us at our website, faithalone.org. We have a free online seminary, we have a free subscription magazine, and every year we host an annual national conference. Find out more about these things at faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Philippe Sterling. 

BOB: We didn’t actually get to the seventh seal the last time, which opens up into the trumpets, right? Sterling—seals, trumpets. So let’s look at the seventh seal, what verse is that? 

PHILIPPE: We’ll go to chapter 8 for that. 

BOB: Revelation 8, is that verse 1? 

PHILIPPE: Verse 1, “When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.” 

BOB: Now don’t give us the joke about this. 

PHILIPPE: Oh, I won’t bring it up because if Brenda listens to this, I’m in trouble.

BOB: Brenda would say, you can’t say this shows there’s no women in heaven. Okay, actually, there’s going to be silence because what’s about to come is so awesome, right? It’s a fearful thing. It’s a difficult thing because these judgments are going to be worse. 

PHILIPPE: Yes. And so they got progressively worse in that pause there in heaven as the seven angels who stand before God receive seven trumpets.

BOB: All right, that’s verse 2. All right. 

PHILIPPE: And then the golden censer, which represents the prayers of all the saints.

BOB: Okay, now a censer. I grew up part of the time in the Serbian Orthodox Church, and they would have a censer that they would swing and it had incense in it. And this incense had a sweet smell to it and they’d shake it in my direction and then in somebody else’s direction, etc. And that’s what this is, right? This is an incense-burning censer. 

PHILIPPE: Right. And it then goes back to the priests in the tabernacle and the incense that’s before the curtains, before the Holy of Holies.

BOB: And this is figurative, is it literal and figurative or is it just figurative talking about he sees this, an angel with a censer, but what’s in the censer is not incense with smoke going up, but it’s prayers, with prayers going up. 

PHILIPPE: No, the incense represents the prayers of all the saints. 

BOB: So is he actually seeing and smelling incense burning? 

PHILIPPE: I think it’s both. It’s both literal and figurative. The incense represents the prayers of the saints. But I think it’s an actual scene in the heavenly tabernacle that’s taking place. 

BOB: And verse four does say the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints ascended before God from the angel’s hand. 

PHILIPPE: Yeah. So the idea that the incense is mixed in with the prayers, and it’s all ascending to God and to the Lamb. 

BOB: You have something like this in Acts 10 where the angel tells Cornelius that his prayers have ascended to God. Okay. So when we pray and you are said in a previous episode that these prayers are probably not just saints from the Tribulation, but this is believers of all time. 

PHILIPPE: I think so. Previously, of course, with the seal, that was those who had been martyred, I think, during the Tribulation period who asked, “How long?” But here it seems to be generalized to the prayers of all the saints, I think, of all the ages in this final period of judgment is an answer to that.

BOB: Because they all want God’s justice and righteousness to come and to reign. They want Jesus to rule and reign. In order for that to happen, you have to go through this seven years of Tribulation, the outpouring of the wrath of the Lamb. And so this is the accumulation of prayers all the way from Adam and Eve through the Tribulation period.

PHILIPPE: And I’m sure that you’ve probably prayed the so-called Lord’s prayer, “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done.” So when we said, “Thy kingdom come,” or when we said, “Come Lord Jesus,” our prayers are being preserved and will be presented at this point. 

BOB: So that all of our prayers will be a part of this, which is ascending to God at that time. 

PHILIPPE: Yes. So for the judgments to come, for the reclamation of the earth and the final rejection of the rebels of the earth, both angelic, I think, and human, which will take place in chapter 19 and in 20. 

BOB: All right. So what’s going on in verse five? 

PHILIPPE: Verse five, “Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.” So I think this is literal as well, the censer is thrown to the earth and natural disturbances and they’ll begin to take place. And then the sounding of the trumpets will take place beginning with verse six. 

BOB: Okay. So they’re all prepared. And in verse seven, you’ve got the first angel that’s tooting his trumpet. And what happens there? 

PHILIPPE: And there, “Hail and fire followed, mingled with blood and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up and all the green grass was burned up.” So hail and fire. So if it is natural calamity, then we can see vast lightning storms take place where then a third of the trees are burned up and all the green grass. But there’s a limit though. It’s only a third of the trees. 

BOB: And it might be. I don’t know. It seems like I recall when I walked through Revelation before and taught through it before, it seems like a lot of people argue that this was only a third of the green grass when it says all the green grass, that means all the green grass within the region of the third of the trees. Or do you take the view that this means all the green grass on the entire planet? 

PHILIPPE: I haven’t really analyzed it to be able to say. It could be either one. 

BOB: All right. 

ANNOUNCER: We will rejoin in just a moment. But years ago, Zane Hodges wrote the Gospel Under Siege. Sadly, this is still true. And GES president Bob Wilkin has recently written its sequel. Bob’s new book, The Gospel is Still Under Siege, is a book about theological clarity on the Biblical teaching about eternal salvation. It is available now. Secure yours today at the Grace Evangelical Society’s bookstore. Find it at faithalone.org/store. That’s faithalone.org/store. Now back to today’s content.

BOB: So that’s the first of the trumpets. And then you go to the second angel. 

PHILIPPE: So it’s seven trumpets, seven angels. So each is different. “And the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.” 

BOB: This sounds a lot like what happened with the ten plagues of Egypt. Wasn’t the Nile turned to blood in one of the plagues? 

PHILIPPE: The Nile was turned into blood. And of course there was a hail, with fire and fire representing lightning, with one of the plagues. And here a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. Again, this is conjecture, but I wonder if it’s an asteroid or a vast heavenly comet or something, that comes and a third of the sea’s affected. 

BOB: Now you had a third of the trees. Now you get a third of the seas. And does that mean then that a third of the life in the sea died? And there was a third of the fish, a third of the mammals, a third of the whales, a third of the dolphins and the porpoises.

PHILIPPE: That’s how it seems to me, just the plain understanding of the text is indicated, that a third of sea life perishes, as a result of this. Whether it’s a massive volcano. And of course we’ve had, I don’t know if you ever heard of Krakatoa, and that vast eruption that occurred, I think was 1890s or there about. It killed a whole bunch of natural life. And it darkened, for a year or more, otherwise a significant darkening of the skies that occurred all over the earth. 

BOB: Well, the ash that comes out from volcanoes can travel around the world. It’s amazing, in our time, we’ve had volcanic activity where the ash was spreading across continents. And so what we envision here is a really terrible situation. 

PHILIPPE: Yes, and that’s only the second trumpet. And then verse 10 is the third. “The third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on  third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood.” And here, this might be an asteroid. “A third of the waters became Wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.” 

BOB: So you’ve got, again, a third. 

PHILIPPE: This was on inland waterways as compared to the seas.

BOB: So the seas involve salt water. The rivers involve fresh water, and you’ve got now, this freshwater becomes spoiled or polluted or bitter, such that it’s even killing people who drink from it. And of course, there are lots of people around the planet who don’t have treatment centers for their water and they’re drinking right from the rivers. Or would this include lakes or would this just literally be rivers? 

PHILIPPE: Well, again, it says the springs of water, so most lakes, many of them are spring fed. 

BOB: So it would involve those as well. 

PHILIPPE: And that’s the third angel, the third trumpet.  “Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine and likewise the night.”

BOB: Now, what does that mean? That has always puzzled me as to what this is. It doesn’t literally mean that we’re knocking out a chunk of the sun or a chunk of the moon, does it? 

PHILIPPE: Again, if we follow a cause and effect chronologically, maybe what’s affected by, if it was a volcanic eruption, and then an asteroid that may have woken up, and that’s affecting then the visibility of the sun and the moon and the stars.

BOB: It’s cutting out a third of the light from the sun, the moon, and the stars. So during the day, you’ve got one third less light. At night, you’ve got one third less light. 

PHILIPPE: I mentioned Krakatoa. I had read where that’s literally what happened all around the world. But this is more massive than that. 

BOB: Right. And this, certainly this would cause fear among all the people on the planet. Right? 

PHILIPPE: Yes. And then there was an angel. And there’s a pause that occurs before the fifth angel will sound in chapter nine. But there’s an eagle or an angel, it says here, “flying to the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, ‘Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpets of the three angels who are about to sound.” 

BOB: Yes. Now, there’s a lot of textual issues here. If you have a new King James version, you can look at the bottom and see where the Majority text differs with the Critical text. And sometimes where the Majority text differs from the TR or the Textus Receptus. 

PHILIPPE: Some say that it’s eagle, but here it says, an angel, I think, in the Majority text. 

BOB: Right. Okay. Well, we’re out of time, Philippe. I don’t know how these things happen, but we’ve gone through the seventh seal and the first five of the trumpet judgments, right? 

PHILIPPE: First four. So we’ve got three more trumpets. And the seventh trumpet will be introducing the seven bowls. 

BOB: Right. So 12 and following is about the fourth. And the fifth starts in chapter nine.  All right. We’ll pick up there next time. And in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: Be sure to check out our daily blogs at faithalone.org. They are short and full of great teaching, just like what you’ve heard today. Find them at faithalone.org/resources/blog. We would love to hear from you. Maybe you’ve got a question, comment, or some feedback. If you do, please don’t hesitate to send us a message. Here’s our email address. It’s radio@faithalone.org. That’s radio@faithalone.org. And when you do, very important. Please let us know your radio station call letters and the city of your location.

And on our next episode, join us. We will be talking about the fifth and sixth trumpets. And until then, let’s keep grace in focus.