Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Have you ever heard it said that Christ has forgiven all your sin, past, present, and future? How many different kinds of forgiveness are there? Well, stay with us. We’re going to talk about this today on Grace in Focus. Thank you, friend, for joining us. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is FaithAlone.org, and we invite you there to find out more about us, including our seminary. It’s a free online seminary where you can earn an MDiv degree. To get the information, go through the application process, get ready to study with us, the next time we start a semester, and we will look forward to having you. The website—FaithAlone.org. 

And now, today’s question and answer discussion, here’s Bob Wilkin, along with Ken Yates. 

KEN: Okay, well, we got a question from Sid, and I like this because Sid is addressing an article that I wrote. Now, I say I like it, not because I necessarily get the big head, because he might be saying he disagrees with me. I’m not sure—

BOB: Oh, no one would disagree with you, Ken, they wouldn’t be so brave—

KEN: This is humbling. But he’s talking about, he doesn’t say it one way the other, but I wrote an article about the forgiveness of sins. And by the way, Kathryn and I, my daughter, were in the process of writing a book on this, and that’s why I wrote the article for a Grace in Focus. 

But one of the things I said in the article is that I do not believe the New Testament teaches that the believer, all the sins of the believer, have been forgiven. 

BOB: That’s a view that I have come to in the last year or so. And it makes a lot of sense because if you think about it, how do you forgive something before it’s happened? In other words, do you forgive any human being before they do it? Do you forgive your children in advance? Do you forgive your spouse in advance? No, all forgiveness is, once there’s something to forgive. 

And so the idea that there’s a positional forgiveness is very common in evangelical and free grace circles. And we’re kind of on a ledge here because there’s not many people in GES that agree with us. So think about it, but he has some good questions for you.

KEN: Sure. So the question is, as Bob just mentioned, is positional forgiveness, is the way evangelicals, that even grace people will say, well, when I believe, positionally, all my sins—

BOB: Including future ones

KEN: And future ones. 

BOB: But then we turn right around and teach the new believer—but you need to confess your sins to have the forgiveness of sins, right? 1 John 1:9? And then people get confused. I thought you said all my sins were forgiven. Well, they are. 

KEN: Positionally. 

BOB: But they’re not experientially. 

KEN: Experientially. 

BOB: And not in terms of fellowship. 

KEN: And what I wrote in my article is I don’t believe that. I believe that the forgiveness of sins is not the same thing as receiving eternal life. 

BOB: That all forgiveness of sins is in terms of fellowship. 

KEN: Right. That was that was the article. And so again, Sid brings up some some great verses here and he goes, well, what about these? 

BOB: Okay, let’s go through some. 

KEN: Okay, let’s go through. John 1:29.

BOB: “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” Well, where’s forgiveness there? 

KEN: Well, that’s just it. It takes away the sins of the world. And one of the things I want to write in the book, that Kathryn’s going to write in the book as well is that the sins of the world haven’t been forgiven. So that’s not what John is saying. 

BOB: No. They’ve been removed, there’s no longer a barrier. That’s why if you look in many tracts, they will show the cross bridging the gap between God and man. 

KEN: Right. And the unbeliever’s sin is not forgiven. But the unbeliever’s sin has been taken away in this sense. In the sense that Christ’s death, as you said, Bob, removes the barrier of sin so that He can give eternal life to anyone who believes Him for it. BOB: Exactly. So John 1:29 is not a problem. 

KEN: Right. Not a problem. And then Sid asked, what about Psalm 103:11-12? “For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, so far He has removed our transgressions from us.”

So isn’t the Psalm saying that God has removed all of our sins from us? I would say no. In this Psalm, he’s talking to his people.  And it’s those who fear him. Okay. I fear him. And he has removed our transgressions from us. I would say this is those who confess their sins. He has removed them from us. If we’re going to say this is forgiven, this isn’t saying that all of our sins have been forgiven, even his people in the Old Testament.

BOB: Well, like for example, they didn’t have animal sacrifices that went forward. In other words, if you’re having a sacrifice, a burnt offering, let’s say a whole burnt offering, well, that was for sins you’ve already committed. 

KEN: That’s a great point. I mean, even the author of Hebrew says in the Old Testament, their sins were always before them. They would be back there next year on the Day of Atonement, offering another sacrifice for their sins. 

BOB: Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement.

KEN: That’s right. So this Psalm is written to the Jewish people. It can’t mean that all their sins have been forgiven. 

BOB: Including future ones. 

KEN: Right. It can’t be including their future sins. So what you’re saying is maybe it’s looking at, okay, in the past when I made these sacrifices for sins, you know, my sins were forgiven, fellowship with the Lord was restored. 

BOB: And they’ve been removed, but those are past ones that had been removed as far as God’s not holding them against us, but it’s not saying that future sins have been removed or forgiven yet. 

KEN: Right. And it’s interesting there in verse 11, he says this is for those who fear him. There were believers in the Old Testament who sins had not been removed from them, whether they didn’t make the sacrifices, they didn’t confess it. 

BOB: They weren’t currently fearing God. 

KEN: They weren’t fearing Him. So this is another one. Okay. What about John 19:30? I think you wrote an article on this about Jesus’ words on the cross when He says, “It is finished.” We’ve all heard it means paid in full. And I think that’s, I’m almost positive. That’s what Sid means when Jesus said “Tetelestai“. 

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KEN: Okay, it has been paid in full, people say. What that means is Christ, when He said “It is finished” says, I have paid for all the sins. They would say a people who believe in Me. 

BOB: Well, you remember earlier He said, I have been sent by the Father to fulfill everything and to finish everything He sent me to do. And so when he says on the cross, it is finished. He means I’ve finished the work the Father sent me to do. It culminated in his death on the cross. That’s what He was pointing to his whole ministry. Now He didn’t tell the disciples that until later on because they weren’t ready to hear it. And even then they weren’t ready to hear it. But He was focused on Jerusalem and he was focused on Golgotha. 

Now, does that word tetelestai also mean paid and full? Yes, it was used in that way. And could it mean that I’ve paid the penalty for men’s sins? Well, maybe, but if so, it would be like John 1:29. He’s removed the sin barrier, not that he’s forgiven the whole world because if that were the case, then what you would have, if you hold the view that this refers to the forgiveness of sins, past, present, and future, then you would say every single person who has ever lived is forgiven, past, present, and future. 

KEN: And nobody believes that. 

BOB: But even if you did believe that, the people who didn’t believe in Jesus would still go to the lake of fire, even if they were completely forgiven, because if you’re spiritually dead—

KEN: If you don’t have life.

BOB: If you don’t have life, your name’s not written in the book of life. And according to Revelation 20:15, anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. You get confusing when we start talking about forgiveness as though that’s the issue. The issue isn’t forgiveness. The issue is I’m dead. I need life.

KEN: Yeah, and that’s one of the things I argue in the papers. Well, no, obviously I’m not alone on this, that again, the forgiveness of sin is not what gives us eternal life. And that’s part of the problem. People equate the forgiveness of sins with going to heaven, and therefore they say, okay, all believers have to have all their sins forgiven, or they wouldn’t make it into heaven. 

BOB: I like what you just said, and I would reverse that. It’s not the forgiveness sins gives eternal life. It’s eternal life gives us forgiveness of sins. And what it gives us is forgiveness of sins up to that point, so that we begin the Christian life with a clean slate and fellowship with God. 

That’s why we don’t tell the brand new believer, would you make a list of all your sins you’ve ever committed? Because you need to do that to be in fellowship with God. No, you don’t. We don’t care what sins they have, right? We’re not going to go into a list of their sins. We don’t want to. How is that glorifying to God? What we want to say is, you’re now called to follow Christ. And if you’re going to follow Christ, it’s going to be a new path. And that’s not required to have eternal life, but it is required to follow this new path to please God. And by the way, if you do please God, you’re going to get blessed by God. And if you don’t please God, you’re going to get cursed by God, so you pick.

KEN: And when you believe in Jesus, all your past sins have been forgiven. by the way, whether you know it or not. And you have access to God, you have fellowship with God. But what I argue in the article that’s in the Grace and Focus is, but that’s not your future sins. When I sin in the future, if I want that fellowship with Him to continue, I have to confess those sins. And that’s another verse that Sid brings up here. 

But I like what you said, when Jesus says it is finished, the emphasis is not on “paid in full”. The emphasis is on “It is finished.” My ministry is over. I’ve done what the Father sent me to do. I appreciated that. But even if you think, oh it’s talking about sins, and we would say His death paid for the forgiveness of your sins, in Him you have the forgiveness of sins when you believe. And His death also provides the forgiveness of sins in the future. 

BOB: 1 John 1:7,”If we walk in the light, as He is the light, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sins.” 

KEN: And He’s talking about the future. And Sid brings up 1 John 1:9-10. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 

BOB: It seems like that works against His view. Well, I don’t know if it’s His view, but it certainly doesn’t contradict your point that forgiveness is ongoing. 

KEN: And if we say that we have not sinned, when the Scripture reveals my sin to me, He says this is a sin, and I look at it and say, no, that’s not a sin, then we make Him a liar. Because His word says it’s a sin, and I go, no, it’s not. So I make God a liar, and His word is not in us. And so even 1 John 1:9 is talking about future sins, if we want to be forgiven in the future. And again, most evangelicals will say, well, that’s talking about experiential forgiveness, but positionally we’re forgiven of all of our sins. And I’m arguing, the Bible doesn’t say that. I don’t believe the Bible teaches that.

BOB: Now, I don’t even think Colossians 1 and Colossians 2 teach that. I think when it says He has forgiven us all our trespasses, He means all our trespasses up to this point. In other words, He’s not saying He’s forgiven all our future transgressions. He’s just saying, since I’m in fellowship with God, since I’ve been practicing 1 John 1:9, right now I’m in a forgiven state. But whether I’m going to be forgiven tomorrow, depends on whether I continue to walk in the light and confess my sins. 

Keep in mind, a lot of people don’t agree with this, even within GES, even within free grace circles. So study this for yourself. Write about it, study it, think about it. 

KEN: And just say, when you talk to people, is it proper to say, positionally we’ve been forgiven, but experientially we haven’t? That’s the normal view. 

BOB: I’d encourage you to think about it. 

KEN: Sure, I would too. Well, thanks, Ed. And until next time, folks, remember, keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode: what is hyper-grace? Please join us, and until then, let’s keep Grace in focus. The preceding has been a listener-supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.