Transcript

ANNOUNCER: When Ephesians and Colossians talk about us being chosen, is it about us being chosen to persevere in holiness—the question we’re going to be thinking about today here on Grace in Focus. We are delighted that you are with us. This is the radio broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. We have a website to which we invite you, faithalone.org, There, one of the things you can learn about is our online seminary. It is a free online seminary, free as long as you maintain a 3.0 or better grade average, and you can even go so far as to earning an MDiv degree. Great school with great faculty online, go through the application process, find out more, visit us at faithalone.org. 

And now for today’s question and answer discussion here are Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates. 

KEN: Bob, we have a question from Tim asking about two passages, two verses, that deal with being chosen, if you will.  And one of them, is in Ephesians chapter 1, verse 4, where Paul says, “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight.” But then in Colossians 1:22-23, Paul, the same author, writes, “But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight without blame and free from accusation, if you continue in your faith, establish and firm and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.” And so in Ephesians, it says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless. And in Colossians 1, he says, He chose you basically to be holy and blameless if you continue firm until the end. And he goes, how do we reconcile these two passages? Were we predestined to be holy and blameless at the Judgment of Christ? 

BOB: So the way Tim asked it and the way you restated it slightly gets it wrong because in the Ephesians 1 is it verse 4, he says, “He chose us in Him to be holy and blameless”? 

KEN: Well, I’m just reading his question. Let’s see. I’m going to read it now from the New King James version, “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.” 

BOB: Okay. So that’s who we should be. It doesn’t say that that’s guaranteed that that’s what we will be. But secondly, you need to understand in Ephesians the first person plural “we” or “us” always, always, always refers to the Church. Jews and Gentiles together in one body. 

KEN: Right. And that’s critical to understanding the book of Ephesians. You know, GES had a conference. How many years ago was it three? Three years ago, I think. Yes, he chose the Church, the “us”, he chose us that we should be holy and without blame. 

BOB: And you have the same thing in Ephesians 2:10, right? He goes from Ephesians 2:8-9 with the “you” referring to the Gentiles in the Church at Ephesus and he says, “For we are His workmanship” we, Jews and Gentiles together, His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” And then he goes on to say that the dividing wall is broken down between Jews and Gentiles and we’re one body, etc, etc. So Ephesians 1:4 is not saying that there’s a guarantee we’re going to be—we individually or even local churches collectively—will be holy and blameless. And Ephesians 2:10 doesn’t say that either. They’re both saying that’s God’s desire for us. Now, when you get over to Colossians 1—

KEN: But wait before you go on to that, let’s talk about Ephesians 1:4. First of all, let’s just say for all of us, when you read the book of Ephesians, get the Western notion out of your mind, it’s all about me. You know, it’s just me, me, me, me. That’s the way we are. That’s the way we’re wired. 

BOB: Don’t Calvinists take Ephesians 1:4 to talk about chosen for eternal life? 

KEN: Well, that’s it. You know, was I chosen? Who’s he talking about? He’s got to be talking about me. It’s always about me as an individual and Bob did a great job here, pointing out the whole book, really is what he’s done in bringing Jews and Gentiles into the body of Christ. Now, I know that’s weird and I know we don’t think that way, but that’s what’s going on in the book of Ephesians. So we would encourage all of you to just, when you read the book of Ephesians, think of the Church, right? 

But let’s talk a little bit about this in Ephesians 1. I’ve never asked you this, I think, and I don’t remember talking really about it at the conference. In your opinion, do you think that what Paul is saying is, God wants the Church to be holy and blameless? Or is he saying that it’s something he desires? Or is he saying that in the Church, the Church will be holy. There will be people within the Church who reign with Christ, for example. There will be people who walk here in love. In other words, is Paul saying that, hey, listen, God chose us that we would be holy and without blame before him in love, is he saying that this is going to happen, that the Church as a whole will be holy and blameless before him? You see what I’m saying? Or is he saying, hey, this was God’s desire, this is what he chose us to be, but the Church may blow it. 

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BOB: First of all, I think Tim’s on to something. We might get some clues from Colossians 1:21-23, because it does talk about holy and blameless, etc. However, I think it’s the former of what you’re talking about. That he’s saying He has chosen the body of Christ to be a vehicle for His glory and to be holy and blameless in Christ. That’s what he wants from us, and I think Ephesians 2:10 brings that out again. That we’re His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which He prepared beforehand that we, the local church, should walk in them. 

Now we know from the letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 that not every local church is doing well, right? Not every local church is doing that. But having said that, we do get later in Ephesians chapter 5 verses 5 to 7, about inheriting the kingdom. And that is for the believers who are holy and blameless. And I would argue that Colossians 1:21-23 is saying that it’s a specific group of believers who are holy and blameless, not all believers. 

KEN: For example, in Hebrews, the metochoi are the partners. Christ is going to have his metochoi. Christ is going to have His partners who reign with Him. 

BOB: Same thing Romans 8:17, “and co-heirs with Christ if indeed we suffer with Him, we might be glorified together with him.” So yeah, He will have His partners, He will have His metochoi, He will have his co-rulers. 

KEN: So the Church is going to provide those who are going to rule with Christ. 

BOB: Right. Now of course the Old Testament saints will also rule with Christ, but they’re not what’s being talked about here. 

KEN: Well in Ephesians it’s that God chose that Jews and Gentiles, this is not true in the Old Testament, would form the body of Christ. 

BOB: Right. And He actually wants Church age believers to rule over Israel and the nations in the Millennium and on the new earth. But of course Old Testament saints who were faithful are also going to get to rule and reign. We don’t know exactly how all that works out. 

KEN: Okay, well that’s good. Now let’s look at Colossians 1:22-23. 

BOB: And there’s one word that you left out when you read the question and when you summarized the question and it’s the word “present”. 

KEN: Here in Colossians 1?

BOB: Yes.

KEN: It says, “In you who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight, if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and steadfast and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard.” 

BOB: Right. So notice before you get to the “if” which Tim makes a good point about, the issue here is presentation somewhere. Well, where would this presentation be, to present you holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight? Is there some kind of future time when believers who have been holy, blameless, and above approach will be presented by Christ before the angels and before God the Father and where He’s going to say, these are my companions, these are my co-heirs, these are the ones who have been faithful. 

KEN: Absolutely. New Testament’s crystal clear—it’s at the Judgment Seat of Christ and all those passages where Jesus talks about it, that’s clearly what Paul is talking about.

BOB: And it is conditional, right? 

KEN: Right. Notice “if”. 

BOB: “If you continue.” The same idea is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1, “If you hold fast the word which I preached to you unless you believed in vain”, which would mean if Christ didn’t rise from the dead then faith in Christ is worthless. But if their belief in Christ was valid then they have to continue to hold fast to the good news so that they would be healthy at the Judgment Seat of Christ. 

KEN: Yeah, 1 Corinthians 15, that whole chapter is on rewards. It ends on that note. And even when he talks about the resurrected body, there’s going to be differences in resurrected bodies between one from another just as the stars differ. And just as the moon is brighter than the stars and the sun is brighter than the moon and the resurrection that’s the way it’s going to be. 

BOB: Right. So I would say in the Colossians passage His desire is to present us this way. But whether Tim is going to be found that way, whether Bob is going to be found that way, whether Ken is going to be found that way depends on whether we persevere. Now we’re going to be in the kingdom. 

KEN: Right. And again, the Church is going to have those who do. 

BOB: Exactly. And we see that from lots of passages including this one, but you’ve gotta persevere to get. See, that’s where perseverance theology messes up. A lot of people say, if you don’t persevere, you’re going to hell. No, if you don’t persevere and you’re a believer, you’re going to be with the Lord forever—first in heaven when you die and then in the Millennium and the New Earth. But you’re not going to rule and reign with Him. 

So the issue is this presentation of the Judgment Seat of Christ and the choosing, there’s other verses that talk about being chosen to be Christ’s partners and being chosen to be co-ruler. 

KEN: Those who suffer with Him. 

BOB: Yeah. And that requires that we suffer with Him. 

KEN: Right. And so God in Ephesians 1 chose the Church—is the “we”, that was His— 

BOB: Right. And he wants the Church to be holy and blameless. And if we, any individuals within the Church are holy and blameless, that’s the way He’ll present us at the Judgment Seat of Christ. But he’s not going to present us that way, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, if we die or are raptured when we’re out of fellowship with Him. 

KEN: And don’t let anybody use these two verses either Ephesians saying, “Oh, he chose certain people to go to heaven and certain people to go to hell.” That’s a gross misunderstanding. Or in Colossians 1 to say, “Well, if you hold fast, well I’ve got to do works, if I’m going to make it into the kingdom of God.” Both of those are horrible interpretations of these verses. 

BOB: If you go to Seminary, we have a name for that. It’s called bogus. 

KEN: Well, thanks for this question, Tim. And remember, keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode: why did Peter and Paul preach forgiveness? Please come back and join us again. Until then, let’s keep grace in focus.