Transcript

ANNOUNCER: According to John 5:28-29, should we be doing good in order to have eternal life? Obviously, we should be doing good, but does that help us to get eternal life? Thank you for being here today. This is Grace and Focus. We come to you each weekday, and this is the broadcast and podcast of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org, and one thing on that website is our bookstore. Our leader Bob Wilkin’s latest book, Grace is Still Under Siege, is available at our bookstore. Find it at faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s discussion, here is Bob Wilkin, along with Ken Yates. 

KEN: And me, what will we say, illustrious GES offices here? 

BOB: Oh, very illustrious. 

KEN: We’re living high on the hog. 

BOB: We never describe it to people, but what we’re at is a little table in the corner of my office, and my office isn’t that big to start with. It’s maybe, I don’t know, a 20 by 15 or something, and maybe less than that, maybe 15 by 15. And we’ve got a corner of it that’s about what, eight feet by about eight feet, just behind you is a group of bookshelves. Just behind me is my desk. And then there’s other bookshelves over here. The whole thing is kind of chaotic. We may get a new office. Right now, we’re in a thousand square feet total, and we might want to get larger, but we’ll see. But anyway, what do you have for us today in terms of a passage? I think it’s something from the Gospel of John as a problem passage. 

KEN: A problem passage in the Gospel of John. And in our series here, I think this is the first one we’ve done in the Gospel of John. 

BOB: Right. And this is from your class on tough texts. 

KEN: Right. So if you listen to this podcast and you do decide to take the whole class, you’ll already be one-thirteenth of the way done. You already know what we’re talking about. This is from John chapter five. And I’m just going to say right off the bat, I am heavily indebted to what I’m going to say, to John Niemela. I can’t remember how long ago Bob, at the conference, by the way, a plug for the National Conference for those who have never been in May here right outside of Denton, Texas. And we have a conference every year. 

And one of these conferences, John Niemela spoke on this particular passage. In John chapter five, verses 28 and 29, here is what the Lord has to say, “Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth.’ Now here’s where the tricky part comes in. “Those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Okay. Anybody who is familiar with the Gospel John, this is this is kind of shocking. Those who have done good will experience the resurrection of life. Well, we know in the Gospel of John, John says a hundred times believe, believe, believe, and the only thing that the unbeliever is called to do is believe in Jesus for eternal life. 

So what does he mean here when he says those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation? 

I will tell you that for a long time, I thought that what that meant was the good there. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life was saying, well, “the good” is believe in Jesus. 

BOB: Yeah. And I have an article I wrote on and I actually defended that view and that the bad was not believing in Jesus. 

KEN: That’s probably why I believe what I did for so long because I read your article. 

BOB: It probably was. 

KEN: And I know that Zane Hodges, who was my favorite prof in seminary, that was his view, that the good there is believing in Jesus and the bad is not believing in Jesus.

BOB: Yeah. But John Niemela, I’m going to point it out something that I think I had overlooked. ‘The good” is ta agatha, which is “the good things” plural. 

KEN: Now, let me just say something about that. I knew that that was plural, but that did not deter me. I still believed that if you had asked me out, I said, well, this is because it’s talking about all the people. So he’s talking to a group of people. So, many people, there’s going to be many people who didn’t believe. And so that’s why it’s in the plural. Now, I know that’s a weak argument, but that’s how I, and by the way, it’s understandable why someone like me would come to that view. 

You know, it’s understandable why because you say, okay, I know from the clear passage that all you have to do is believe. And so what do I do with this passage? You know, that seems to contradict what the clear passage says. So we say, well, I think it means this, you know, I’m going to interpret this unclear passage by the clear passage of John 3:16, 5:24. 

By the way, this is in John 5, as we said, in verses 28 through 29, what did he just say four verses earlier? 

BOB: Yeah, in John 5:24, “He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death into life.” It’s just a matter of believing. 

KEN: Right. And so four verses later, we have “the good”. I think it’s understandable. And I might even say acceptable to say, well, He just said very clearly, believe in Him. And then he says, if you do “the good”, you know, you’ll, you’ll have resurrection of life. Well, “the good” is what he just said. 

BOB: Yeah. And like I said, I didn’t hold that view and did recommend that view, but I like Niemela’s view. And what is his view? 

KEN: Okay. John Niemela’s view is, and I just really appreciated this. You’re right, Bob. Hempointed out that the good here is goods. He who has done the good things for resurrection of life, plural, that it’s talking about good works. And then he says those who have done the evil things to a resurrection of condemnation. John Niemela’s view is what Paul argues in Romans 2. 

ANNOUNCER: Did you know that the Grace Evangelical Society offers an MDiv degree through our online seminary and tuition is free to those who maintain a 3.0 grade average? It is a 3-year degree program and you could submit your application now to gain acceptance. Then stay apprised of our registration periods for upcoming semester terms. Program and application details can be found at gesseminary.org. Have a look at our MDiv degree. Become an approved workman. Find out how gesseminary.org. 

KEN: John Niemela’s view is what Paul argues in Romans 2. That if anyone would do good works, then they would get resurrection of life. 

BOB: Of course, they would have to be perfect good works from the moment of new birth till death. But if a person did nothing but the good things without any sinful things, they didn’t violate God’s commands in any way, then yes, they could have the resurrection of the just. But Niemela’s point is there’s nobody like that because that’s also what Romans 2:13 says. 

KEN: Let me read Romans 2:13.

BOB: And some people misinterpret Romans 2.13 just like they misinterpret John 5:28 and 29. 

KEN: Right. As if I could do those things or if you’re truly saved, I guess is the way to probably say that. In Romans 2:13, Paul writes, “For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.” But Paul then goes on to say, of course, there are none. In Romans 3:9 through 20, “There are none righteous. No, not one. There’s none who do good. All like sheep have turned astray.” And so John Niemela argues that Jesus is saying the same thing Paul says in Romans chapters 2 and 3. 

And so verse 24, as I recall John Niemela’s presentation at the conference, “He who believes in Me has eternal life.” Okay, that’s one way we can approach Christ, believe in Him and have eternal life, or we can try to do it on our own works. And Jesus says, “All judgment,” here in these verses “has been given to Me.” 

So do you want to stand before the Lord as a believer who’s been declared righteous and received eternal life? Or do you want to stand before Him as your judge? All judgments who have given to Him. And if you’ve done the good, then you’ll have resurrection of life. But of course, there is none. 

And I think, John Niemela said it this way, you’ll either deal with Him as one who gives you eternal life or the judge. And so that’s what these verses are talking about. 

BOB: Of course, John wouldn’t deny, and we wouldn’t deny that even if we’ve believed in Him for the free gift of eternal life, He still is our judge. 

KEN: Right. But not in reference to whether we’re going to be in the Kingdom or not.

BOB: Right. John 5:24, there’s three references, past, present, future. He who hears My word and believes in the One who sent me, present, has everlasting life. Shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. The “shall not come into judgment” means there’s not going to be a judgment concerning what the other two parts are talking about, has everlasting life, has passed from death into life. 

KEN: We would say the believer will not stand at the Great White Throne Judgment. That’s the point. 

BOB: But believers will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ. James says, James 5:9, “the Judge is standing at the door”, judge capital J, the Lord Jesus is standing at the door. So he is going to be our judge, but not in terms of our judge for our eternal destiny. So if we meet Him as the giver of life, the Messiah giver of life, then we’re not going to meet Him at the Great White Throne Judgment, telling us, bye, because your name is not in the book of life. Our name is in the book of life, because we believe.

KEN: Yeah. And the verse that I was referencing to just a few minutes ago is right before John 5:24, when Jesus says in verse 22, “For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son.” John writes this to the unbeliever, the book, to tell them how to have eternal life. So the judgment here that when he’s talking about, you will not be judged in John 5:24 is you won’t stand before him at the Great White Throne Judgment. That’s the issue here. So I think you really worded it well, and it may be the way John did it as well, John Niemela, that you’ll either deal with Him as Christ, who gives eternal life through faith alone, or you will stand before Him at the Great White Throne. And He’s going to judge you, the books are going to be open and all will fall short, as the books in Revelation 20:11-15, for unbelievers are opened, those who’ve done good, you’re good to go, but there is none. And again, that is exactly what Paul says in Romans 2 and 3. 

BOB: Okay, so let’s wrap this up. I think that the view that you and I both held before we heard John Niemela’s, is one that is consistent with John 3:6. It is consistent with Ephesians 2:8-9, and it does work. In fact, the New King James translates this, those who have done good, it doesn’t say those who have done the good things plural. But Niemela’s view illustrates the fact that we ought to be open to the fact that maybe there’s a better interpretation. And once I heard his interpretation, I’m like, that’s better.

KEN: And you know, what’s interesting is Zane Hodges held our view too, and he told him in the conference that he approached Zane and said, what do you think? And Zane said, I think you’re right, John. He goes, besides, that’s my view of Romans 2 and 3. So that was great, I appreciate it. 

BOB: Well, thanks so much, Ken, and thank you all and remember, keep grace in focus. 

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