Transcript

ANNOUNCER: In the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 25, Jesus tells a number of different stories. One is about sheep and goats. Who do the sheep and the goats represent? And why are they being separated? Let’s think about this today on Grace in Focus, and we’re glad you’re joining us, friend. This is the radio broadcast and podcast arm of the Grace Evangelical Society. We come to you each weekday and we have a website, faithalone.org, and we’d love for you to go there and learn more about us, including our free magazine, our regional conferences, and our seminary. It is the Grace Evangelical Seminary, and it is free, as long as you maintain a 3.0 or above average, and you can earn an MDiv degree. We would love you to know more about it, go through the application process, and study with us the next time we start a new semester. Get all the info you need at faithalone.org. 

Now then, let’s hear from Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates. Here they are. 

KEN: For the last couple of podcasts, we’ve been in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and 25, and this passage that we’re going to deal with right now is the end of the Olivet Discourse. Right at the end of Matthew 25,  is the parable or, well, as we were talking about, it’s really not a parable. It’s an account of the judgment of the nations. I think is the way we would say it, right? The judgment of the nations when the Lord returns. 

BOB: Well, the word nations in Greek is ethne, and it’s also sometimes translated “the Gentiles”. In Hebrew, it’s goyim. Goy is “gentile” or goyim is “the Gentiles’, but goyim can also refer to “the nations”. And so, yeah, at the end of the Tribulation, the various Gentiles are going to be judged. 

KEN: And these are people who are alive. This is really important. 

BOB: They survive the Tribulation, and there’s two groups. One are called the sheep and one are called the goats. Now, all interpreters recognize that the sheep are those who are going to get into the kingdom, and the goats are the ones who are not gonna get into the kingdom, right? That’s not what makes this a problem passage. So, what makes this a problem passage? 

KEN: Well, there’s a couple, I think. One is that the Lord says that people are sheep because of what they do, and they’re goats because of what they don’t do. So, it’s based upon works. 

BOB: Yeah, and by the way, do in regards to my brethren. In other words, he says, these my brethren, who would the ‘my brethren” be?

KEN: I think a lot of people misinterpret this and say, my brethren would be other believers, but in the context he’s talking about the Jews. 

BOB: So, these would be Jewish believers who have survived the Tribulation. Right. And they’ll be judged separately. They’re not being judged at this judgment. 

KEN: Yeah, the brethren are not being judged here. 

BOB: Right. But he’s saying that the sheep were the ones who treated the Jewish believers well, and the goats are the ones who did not treat the Jewish believers well. So, this seems to teach that, at least during the Tribulation, if you persevere and doing good, then you’re going to get into the kingdom, and if you don’t, you’re not. 

KEN: And that would be a salvation by works. 

BOB: Right. So, we know from John 3:16, and John 5:24, and Ephesians 2:8-9, and Revelation 22:17, that can’t be what this is talking about. Most commentators are going to say, yeah. 

KEN: One of the things that’s always amazed me about this, and the reason this is, one of the reasons this is a tough text, is because most commentators and most preachers or teachers think this is talking about the Church. 

BOB: And clearly, this is Tribulation. 

KEN: Right. Well, but a lot of people don’t believe in the Tribulation, like when I do believe in it. But what’s amazing is, they say, well, this is teaching, as you said, well, you got to persevere in good works, but look at the works. Look at these works, visiting people in prison, you know, these kind of things. And these are the kind of works that very, very, very few believers engage in, even the people who preach this. 

BOB: Oh, I know. But then they have to extrapolate it and say, well, this refers, but then what is it talking about the actual people? In other words, this has to refer to somebody that actually did or didn’t do these things. 

KEN: I remember teaching this when I was in the military one time, and this came up, and they said, well, you got to, this is teaching, you got to do good works in the kingdom. I said, okay, how many people have you visited in prison? I asked a whole class. And as I recall, there wasn’t a single person in the class who had ever visited anybody in prison. So I said, well, are you saying that nobody in here is a believer? And you’re right. So then they go, well, yeah, well, that’s just an example of a good work, you know, I don’t cheat on my wife, you know, I pay my debt, whatever. Well, okay, you’re bending this to your own theology, is what you’re doing. 

BOB: But aren’t we told in James and Galatians that if you stumble in one point, you’re guilty of the whole law? So then how could that be teaching this? 

ANNOUNCER: We will return to today’s content in just a moment. But first, we want to let you know about our regional conferences we have throughout the year. Get more information at faithalone.org/events. Don’t miss the Grace Evangelical Society’s regional conference October 5th and 6th in Trego, Wisconsin at the Trego Community Church. The topic is Eternal Rewards in the Gospel of Mark. More details at faithalone.org/events. That’s October 5th and 6th, Trego Community Church in Trego, Wisconsin. If you’re close by, we hope to see you there. 

BOB: I did a book with Zondervan and the only book that was published by somebody other than Grace Evangelical Society. And it was called Four Views on the Role of Works at the Final Judgment. 

KEN: I remember that book. 

BOB: And one of the co-authors was Tom Schreiner at Southern Seminary, which you had a class with, I believe. And in the book, I had talked about the judgment of the sheep and the goats. And I had also talked about the Judgment Seat of Christ. And I said, these were separate judgments. There’s the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium. And before the Millennium is the judgment of the sheep and the goats and the Judgment Seat of Christ. And I remember Schreiner said in his response to my article, he said, I can’t keep up with all these judgments. He says, the judgment of the sheep and the goats is just another name for the Great White Throne Judgment. The Judgment Seat of Christ is just another name for the Great White Throne Judgment. There’s only one eschatological judgment, not multiple. He said, I can’t keep up with all these judgments Wilkin has. And the funny thing is Schreiner went to Western Conservative Baptist Theological Seminary in Portland under Earl Radmacher, and he was taught dispensationalism, and he later abandoned it. 

But in any regard, this is clearly a separate judgment from the Great White Throne Judgment or the Judgment Seat of Christ. And the question is, why is it that all of them are faithful? In other words, why don’t we see unfaithful Gentile believers here? And what’s our answer? 

KEN: Well, the answer is because only faithful believers will survive the Tribulation period. 

BOB: So this would be the only time in human history other than after the flood, where every surviving person is faithful, right? You have every one in the verse, I think, is Matthew 24:13, which says, “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” The end there is the end of the Tribulation and the salvation is surviving. And we know that because in verse 22 of Matthew 24, it says, “Unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved” but for the elect, for Israel’s sake, those days were cut short, so there would be a remnant of Jews that could go into the Millennium in natural bodies and could fulfill the promise that the descendants of Abraham would be astronomical, like the stars of the sky. You know, they say there are hundreds and hundreds of trillions of stars, and we’ve not seen a population for Israel like that yet. 

KEN: But we will.

BOB: But we will. Yeah, so the issue here is that there will be, during the Tribulation, there will be Jewish believers and they will be thrown in prison. And the people who have visited them will be born again people, not unregenerate people. In fact, most of the people, if not all of the people who survive the Tribulation who are unbelievers are probably gonna be people who took the mark of the beast, and they would be sealed in unbelief once they took the mark of the beast. 

So, but the point here is the one group, it says they’re gonna inherit the kingdom. What verses that where he says inherit the kingdom, which is prepared? 

KEN: This would be verse 34. 

BOB: Verse 34, what does it say? 

KEN: It says, “And the King shall say to those on his right hand, come you blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” 

BOB: Okay, and it was prepared for the overcomers before the foundation of the world. And because they’re overcomers, they’re gonna rule and reign. That’s what inherit the kingdom means. 

KEN: Exactly, that doesn’t mean just entering the kingdom.

BOB: Right. And then in verse 46, he says of the same people, but the righteous into eternal life. This is one of the places where it refers to a future experience of everlasting life, like Matthew 19:29, or also in Galatians 6:8, inheriting eternal life. There’s a possible inheriting a fullness of everlasting life and the life to come. 

So the issue here is not that the faithful simply get into the kingdom, even the unfaithful believers who died during the Tribulation will get into the kingdom. The issue here is they’re gonna rule and reign, they’re gonna inherit. 

But the other group, it says in verse 46 will go away into everlasting punishment. This is also puzzling because these people have not yet experienced the Great White Throne Judgment. 

KEN: Right, they’re just killed here. 

BOB: And they’re not sent immediately into the lake of fire. They’re sent to Hades. So what I would suggest, and this is what Zane Hodges suggests in the Tough Texts book, is this is like their arraignment. You know, like before a person undergoes trial and has found guilty and is then sentenced. This is, there’s enough evidence to hold you until the Great White Throne Judgment. 

KEN: Right, they’re entering it. I mean, they’re killed as part of their judgment, but they’re headed toward eternal judge. 

BOB: Right. But they’re not gonna experience that yet. They’re going to go and experience a thousand years of torment in Hades. And then they will go to, they’ll have their day in court. And the books will be opened and their works will be looked at. And then they’ll be cast in the lake of fire because their name’s not gonna be found in the Book of Life, Revelation 20 verse 15. 

KEN: I just wanna say on this again, there’s a lot of people, you’ll hear a lot of people say that eschatology or the study of the last days are not important. And certainly it’s true that you don’t have to have the right eschatology to receive eternal life. But if you come to this passage and you don’t understand what period of time this is talking about, you’re gonna get twisted all around the axle here. 

You know, if you’re saying, well, this is talking to the church. I gotta go visit people in prison. And if I see a guy on the street that’s hungry, you know, I gotta give him food to make it into the kingdom of God. I mean, you’re gonna mess the gospel up and you’re gonna mess so many passage of Scripture up as well. 

BOB: I agree. Being a dispensationalist makes it much easier to believe in John 3:16 than being a non-dispensationalist. 

KEN: Sure. 

BOB: Well, thanks so much. I hope you all have enjoyed this. I know we’ve been real brief. If you go to our website, we have articles on this at faithalone.org or you can get the book, Tough Texts or you can take Ken’s class. 

But in the meantime, remember, keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode, Mark 16:16: Is it teaching baptismal regeneration? Come back and join us. And in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus.