Transcript

ANNOUNCER: We are looking at tough texts in the Bible, in regard to eternal salvation, and today one that gets quoted a lot, “You will know them by their fruits.” Who is this talking about? Is this about salvation? How should we interpret this? Stay tuned. We’ll talk about it here on Grace in Focus. Glad you are with us today, friend. This is the broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. You can find us at faithalone.org where you can read our articles, find out about our conference ministry, our online seminary, and our bookstore, where you can find Bob Wilkins’ latest book. The Gospel Is Still Under Siege. Find it all at faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s discussion, here’s Bob Wilkin, along with Ken Yates. 

KEN: We’re going through a series of passages that a book was written by GES, well Bob and Zane, Tough Texts, and then also kind of put in a plug for our seminary.

BOB: Because you have a number of passages that aren’t discussed in that book, but that are problem passages or tough texts. And so we’re going to hit a little bit of both. KEN: And so if you’re interested in taking that course, to discuss these more, this might whet your appetite or something like that. And so another tough text that we’re going to deal with is, man, I got to tell you Bob, I think this is probably, if it’s not number one, it’s definitely the top three.

BOB: If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard this, I’d be a millionaire. 

KEN: Right, I mean, it’s on coffee mugs, it’s on shirts, it’s on people’s underwear, it’s everywhere, you know. 

BOB: No, it’s not on their underwear. 

KEN: I’m guessing it is, I don’t know. 

BOB: Well, it is if it’s fruit of the loom. 

KEN: There you go, or I don’t know, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are some evangelicals who have— 

BOB: You will know them by their fruit. 

KEN: Exactly. Okay, so what does Matthew 7:16 and 20 say? This phrase that we hear all the time. 

BOB: Okay, so it says, “You will know them by their fruits”. And there’s two questions that are typically not asked. Number one is who’s the “them”? And number two, what are their fruits? People assume the “them” refers to Christians. It couldn’t be Christians in this context, because the term Christian didn’t even come about until Acts chapter 11:26. Nobody was a Christian until the body of Christ came around. 

So the apostles weren’t Christians, they were believers, right? They were Old Testament believers, and they didn’t become New Testament believers until the day of Pentecost. And so you can’t say Jesus was talking about Christians here, even though you could say He knew that was going to apply to the people who would be called Christians. 

But right at this point, what He’s saying is you are gonna know whoever the “them” are by their fruits. And if you take the “them” to refer to born again people, then you would just say “born again”. And you would say, okay, you can tell that Ken’s born again by his fruits. And then they say, what do they say the fruits are? 

KEN: Well, the fruits are our actions. And of course—

BOB: So our deeds, our works. 

KEN: Sure. And boy, what problems—

BOB: Which is wrong of course. 

KEN: Which is wrong, but if it were right, how do you measure that? 

BOB: Look, I got an email the other day, Ken, from a guy. And he said, the pastor, he heard a sermon where the pastor was talking to his own congregation. And he said, about 70% of you are unsaved. 

KEN: Right. Yeah, I’ve heard that one. 

BOB: Of his own congregation, he said 70% of you’re unsaved. And you need to get to work. 

KEN: Because he looked at their works. And he said, you don’t measure up, you know, but how do you, that is, you know, when people hear that and so many people believe that, you know, believe that understanding of this text, but they don’t stop and say, well, like for example, I understand Grudem. And when he was asked this, well, how many fruits do you have to have? He just said “some”. Well, I mean, you think about that. Just to anybody, just listen to this, you know, some. Okay. Who doesn’t have some good works? 

BOB: Oh, Hitler had some good works. I mean, Stalin had some good works. There’s nobody that lives that didn’t have some good works unless you hold the view that unbelievers aren’t still in the image of God. 

But if they are, then don’t fathers, didn’t Jesus say that fathers are going to give to their son what they ask for.  And they’re going to feed them and they’re going to care for them. Well, that’s good works. 

KEN: I mean, look at any religious cult and the people in it. 

BOB: Oh, especially look at the Latter-day Saints. Aren’t they wonderful people for the most part unless you’re a Jack Mormon? The Mormons, I know, are exceedingly nice people. 

KEN: Right. I mean, there’s all kinds of people that are not, who will say, I don’t believe, you know, I don’t believe any of that stuff, but you can look at them and say, man, that’s a really good guy. I mean, if nothing else, he’s a good citizen. He pays his taxes. He treats his employees well, you know, he gives him bonuses or what I mean, everybody. And so this is such a ridiculous statement to say, well, you got to have some good works. 

BOB: Okay. So let’s talk about what this does mean, not what it doesn’t mean. He said, well, maybe we should read the whole passage. Can you read the whole thing from Matthew 7:15-20? 

KEN: Sure. And you talked about, first of all, who’s he talking about? Well, he tells us right here. Verse 15, “Beware of false prophets”. 

BOB: Now, wouldn’t that be a clue— ding ding ding ding ding ding ding! But people forget this when they get to the next verse, right? 

KEN: Right. You’ll know them by their fruits. Well, who? The guys we were just talking about it. 

BOB: Now we’re switching from false prophets to born again people. 

KEN: Exactly. Okay. “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” 

BOB: Now that’s another clue, isn’t it a fruit clue? Because what does he mean when he says they come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they’re ravenous wolves? What, what do they look like? 

KEN: They look like sheep, but they’re wolves. They, a false prophet will often look good. And why do they look good? Because of what they do. Yeah. And you just mentioned some, a, a devout Mormon, you know, for example, who’s never believed in Jesus for eternal life. But you look at him and you go, man, that guy’s really, really religious. 

BOB: Haven’t you met a lot of Roman Catholics that believe in works salvation, but yet they’re wonderful people? 

KEN: Sure. I’ve met a lot of atheists that are better than you, for example. 

BOB: No, come on. Okay. You’re probably right on that. 

KEN: Okay. I’ll say they’re better than me. How’s that? I’ve met atheists who are better people than I am. 

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BOB: So whatever the fruit is in the next verse is not their clothing, their works clothing. It’s something else. But go ahead. 

KEN: So right here, we see what you said earlier. The two things that people assume we see right off the bat by looking at the context. That’s not what it’s talking about. It’s not talking about believers. It’s talking about false prophets and it’s not talking about actions. The fruit is not actions. It’s something else.

BOB: And it’s pretty obvious. If you think about what does a false prophet do?

KEN: Yeah, they speak. 

BOB: They speak and they speak what false words. So therefore their fruits are their false words. 

KEN: What do they say? 

BOB: And how do you know their false prophets? Because their words don’t come true. Remember the Old Testament? If a person gave a prophetic message and it didn’t come true, then they were to be killed. 

KEN: Right. Even if they were holy people on the outside. 

BOB: Right. Okay. So 16.

KEN: 16 is, “You will know them by their fruits.” And then he goes on to say, “Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles, even so every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.’ 

So a false prophet is not going to say good things because he’s a false prophet. And verse 18 says, “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.”

BOB: Well, clearly if you think the fruit refers to your work, exactly, then you’d say nobody is going to get in unless they’re perfect from the moment they believe till the moment they die. 

That’s why people have to play games with this and say, well, no, you’re mostly good. Reminds me of Princess Bride where he was mostly dead. The guy could move just a little bit. If it’s related to teaching, then you would say the false prophet is teaching a false message and the true prophet is preaching a true message. 

KEN: And we’d also say that a believer, this is not talking about believers and unbelievers, is talking about false prophets and true prophets, a believer can say false things. And when he does, he’s a false prophet. Of course, there’s people who would say that a false, you know, a true believer could never be a false teacher or a false prophet. 

BOB: And those people are wrong. 

KEN: That’s right. And so what about this verse, Bob, when it says in verse 19, “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” 

BOB: It reminds me of John 15:1-6. And it’s the basic point that if we don’t abide in Christ, we experience a fiery judgment that can result in premature death. 

KEN: Sure. And we would say, if this is an unbelieving false prophet, then yeah, he’s going to wind up in the Lake of Fire, but it’s because he’s an unbeliever. 

BOB: Right. But they could potentially be believing false prophets. Absolutely. And if they are, then they’re going to experience a fiery judgment and die, but then they will go to be with the Lord because they are a believer. 

KEN: And we all know examples of people like that. We know people that we look at or we know we’ve met them, we’ve even ministered with them. And they understand the message of grace, and then for a host of reasons, they deny it later. And they become false prophets. And they’re going to experience the fire of God’s judgment. 

And by the way, here’s another word that I think we mentioned in our introduction with tough text, the word fire. You know evangelicals, they see the word fire. Boom. 

BOB: They think hell. 

KEN: It’s always hell. 

BOB: Gehenna, Lake of Fire, or whatever. No, fire most often refers to judgment in this life. 

KEN: Right. Yeah, it doesn’t refer to the Lake of Fire in the New Testament—very rarely.

BOB: And so the last verse in this passage is “Therefore by their fruit, you will know them.” So if you want to know who’s a false prophet and who’s a true prophet, then look at their words. 

And by the way, this expression, “their fruits” only occurs one other time, if I remember right, in Matthew, do you remember where that is, Ken? 

KEN: Matthew 12, right?

BOB: I think it’s verse 38 is right. So what does Matthew 12:38 say? 

KEN: Well, Matthew 12:38, the section begins in 33 and it goes through 37. 

BOB: Yeah, so it’s 37. 

KEN: Right. Where it says in verse 37, “By your words, you’ll be justified. And by your words, you will be condemned.” And that whole passage there, starts off in verse 33, make the tree good and it’s fruit good. And then the Lord talks about what they say. And in the context, it’s the Pharisees who just said, Jesus was possessed by Satan. It’s their words. 

If you look at a Pharisee, he looked like a sheep. He was very, he looked holy, dressed in the right clothes, carried his King James Bible with him. That’s a joke, King James Bible. But he went to the synagogue, he prayed, he tithed. So his works made him look good, but his words revealed that he, they were false teachers. 

BOB: That’s right. That’s right. Well, good discussion. And I would encourage all of you to check out the book called Tough Texts. We have a chapter on that. 

And in the meantime, let’s all keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode: A famous passage used by lordship proponents. Let’s talk about it, please join us. And in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus.