Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Today on Grace in Focus, we begin a short series about angelology, angels, demons, and Satan. We know much about timing through the days of creation from Genesis 1 through 3. But where are the clues in the Bible about when angels were created? Grace in Focus is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. We’re delighted that you’re joining us today. Our website is FaithAlone.org. There’s much to know about our ministry there, including our online seminary, our free magazine, as well as hundreds of articles available to you. Our bookstore is full of resources, one of which is Bob’s latest book, The Gospel is Still Under Siege. All these at FaithAlone.org. 

And now with today’s beginning discussion about angels, here are Bob Wilkin and Philippe Sterling.

BOB: Philippe and I are going to be talking the next couple of shows about angels. You’re teaching a class actually starting in August of this year on angelology, the study of angels, which includes the study of Satan and fallen angels and demons. And if any of you are interested in taking his course, it’s going to be a very popular one. It’s free as long as you maintain a B average. The first class you take with our seminary is free regardless of what grade you get. But if you maintain a B average, you can continue to go through free to you. It’s not free to us. We pay all the faculty and the teaching assistants. But that’s because of the generous donations of what we call partners in grace. And we appreciate all of you who are partners. 

But Philippe, we wanted to talk about angels. And I thought in this first episode, we might just talk a little bit, kind of an introduction. And maybe start out, I know your angels are pretty fascinating subjects, right? 

PHILIPPE: Oh yeah, at times there really have been in popular culture an angel mania, we might say. But every generation of people it seems are fascinated with the matter of angels. And in the 90s, one of the most popular television shows was Touched By An Angel. And we can go way back to one of the most popular movies of all time. We play it every Christmas. I love it. It’s a Wonderful Life. And Clarence. Yeah. 

BOB: He got his wings at the end. 

PHILIPPE: Yeah. And there’s that statement that whenever a bell rings, an angel gets his wings. And of course, it’s bad theology because it’s people that can become angels after they die, in the movie and then the book. But all the way through to the earliest writings that we have, they speak of angels and demons and going way back to the Sumerians. And I think that speaks to the actual existence of angels. 

BOB: Right. And this is all through the Scriptures, right, from Genesis to Revelation all the way through. 

PHILIPPE: So now the culture, of course, distorts, you know, what angels are and what they do. But we want to look into Biblically accurate doctrine of angels. 

BOB: Okay. Well, maybe we could talk a little bit about the creation. And this is controversial here. But were the angels present when God created man and were they present during the creation of the universe? Would like do they precede the creation of the sun, moon, the stars, the planets? Or were they created subsequently? When we know, of course, from Genesis 3 that Satan is in the garden. And we don’t know how long this is after Adam and Eve were created. But the fall of angels has already occurred by Genesis 3, right? 

PHILIPPE: Yes. Genesis 1:1, I think, is a broad statement of all creation, including angels. And in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. But we do have the statement in Job chapter 38 verses 4-7, where God asks Job, you know, where were you when I created all things? And then it states that the angels were there, you know, rejoicing at the time of creation, they were singing and rejoicing. So perhaps—

BOB: And that’s Job 38?

PHILIPPE: That would be Job 38 verses 4-7. 

BOB: So you can look that up and take a look at that. But so would that mean then that they were observing, let’s say, when God filled the earth? And He like day one, He separates the darkness and the light. Or would this be saying that, and by the way, this is God speaking in Job 38, right? This isn’t Job speaking. 

PHILIPPE: Right, this is Yahweh appearing and speaking. 

BOB: And so when He speaks, this is telling us what actually happened. So is this saying that when He created the heavens and the earth, the angels were watching that? 

PHILIPPE: Now, it is perhaps that He first created the angels and then they were observing the creation of the earth, the forming and the filling of it as it’s described in Genesis 1. Now, there’s a couple, just two really main views that we have—

BOB: Okay, what are the two views?

PHILIPPE: That’s among, you know, conservatives, you know, believing theologians and everything. One view is just what I initially stated, you know, that perhaps on the first day of creation that angels were then created and then they observed then what went on and then sometime then in the garden of Eden is perhaps when the fall of Satan occurred and the rebellion of the one-third of the angels, right? So that’s one view. You know, that it’s all part of the seven day creation, including angels. 

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PHILIPPE: A second view is what some have called a modified gap view. God created the heavens and the earth and there was an angelic creation and an angelic Eden in essence in the idea of an angelic Eden comes from Ezekiel 28 about the, about the anointed cherub walking among the stones of fire and in all of that until then sin was found in him. So there may have been a period of time where there was just an angelic realm and an angelic Eden in which then the fall of Satan and taking the third of the angels with him in rebellion. So is there some kind of a time period for that?

BOB: Okay, so let me see if I can lay these two out. So one view is, and I’m not sure about the second view, but let’s talk about the second view first. According to this view, the angels were created and fell before the first day of creation, right? That would be the second view, the gap view. 

PHILIPPE: Not necessarily before the second day, but not, 

BOB: I mean before the first day. 

PHILIPPE: Oh, right. That would be more of the gap view. They were created. Right.

BOB: Okay, but according to that gap view, would they be created before God created the heavens and the earth? In other words, God creates the angels, a nanosecond later, He creates the heavens and the earth because Job 38 seems to say they see the creation of the earth. The earth doesn’t already exist, formless and void when they’re created, does it according to Job 38?

PHILIPPE: No, Job 38 doesn’t state that. Now the modified gap view, thus said that there was this angelic realm in which then the fall of the angels, a third of the angels—

BOB: But was the angelic realm before the heavens and the earth? 

PHILIPPE: Right. In that view, it was before the heavens, and it was Genesis 1:1, and then before then, they describe seven days that occurred. And if someone wants to read a good account of that, Arnold Fruchtenbaum in his commentary on Genesis lays out that modified gap view. 

BOB: Okay, but here’s what I’m confused about. One option is, God creates the angels. There’s an angelic realm, and then he creates the heavens and the earth. Another view is, God creates the heavens and the earth. Then He creates the angels. There’s a gap between the creation of the angels and day one of separating light and darkness, etc. Those seem to be two different views, and I can’t tell from what you’re saying, which one is this modified gap view? Is it the angels existed before the creation of the earth? Or the heavens and the earth are created, then the angels are created, and now there’s a gap between that and day one of creation. Which one are those two different views? 

PHILIPPE: Oh, they are two different views, but within both views, there are probably variations that that occur. 

BOB: But I also can’t get how, if Job 38 is describing, maybe you could read it. What does Job 38 specifically say? Because if the angels actually saw the creation of the heavens and the earth, it would seem to me that has to precede Genesis 1:1. What does Job 38 say? 

PHILIPPE: Okay. Beginning with verse four, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely, you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstones? When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” So the morning stars, the sons of God—

BOB: Those are used elsewhere in Scripture to refer to angels. 

PHILIPPE: Right. And within the book of Job itself in chapters one and two, so it’s clearly reference to angels, and the statement, “all the sons of God shouted for joy”,  I think implies that they’re all of them were holy, innocent—

BOB: So it was before the fall of the angels. 

PHILIPPE: So before the fall of the angels, they were witnessing the creation of the heavens and the earth. 

BOB: So it seems to me that you almost forces us to see the creation of angels before Genesis 1:1, not after Genesis 1:1, before Genesis 1:2. It almost pushes us in that direction, doesn’t it? 

PHILIPPE: I think it supports it very strongly. 

BOB: Unless you say the foundations of the world etc., refers to the filling of it, in other words, you could, I suppose, argue because most people say the first three days of creation are basically God developing the structure, and then days 4, 5, and 6 are God filling the structure, right? So you get light on day one and separation of light and darkness, but you don’t get the sun until day four. But of course, God doesn’t need the sun to make light. We know that from the book of Revelation chapter 22, the new Jerusalem’s lit up by the Lord Jesus Christ, and it doesn’t need the sun or moon. 

We’re out of time already, and we’ve just even barely begun. But I hope we’ve challenged your thinking. Every one of you, I encourage you to read the Job 38 passage. Read Genesis 1 and meditate on that. But what we know for sure is that the angels were created before Genesis 3 and the fall of angels occurred before Genesis 3 when Satan tempts Eve and then both Eve and Adam sin. We’ve just barely gotten started. And the meantime, Philippe, what are we going to do? 

PHILIPPE: Oh, we’re going to keep grace in focus. 

ANNOUNCER: Be sure to check out our daily blogs at FaithAlone.org. They are short and full of great teaching, just like what you’ve heard today. Find them at FaithAlone.org/resources/blog. We would like to thank all of our financial partners who help us keep this show going. All gifts are tax deductible and very much appreciated. If you’d like to find out how you can be a financial partner, visit us at FaithAlone.org. 

On our next episode, we continue with our study of angels: Do angels have real physical bodies? Please join us for that. And in the meantime, let’s keep grace in focus.