Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Would you say that demon activity in the world is more prevalent today than it ever has been? Or would you say that it’s more prevalent in some countries than it is in the United States? What clues might we get from the Bible about this? This is Grace in Focus. Glad you’re tuning in today as we talk about an important subject. Grace in Focus is the podcast and broadcast arm of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org, and we also have a YouTube channel, YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. There we release short videos, a couple of times a week, and we would love for you to subscribe and view those. It’s content similar to this program. Find our channel, YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society. Once again, our website, faithalone.org. 

And now with today’s discussion here are Bob Wilkin and Kathryn Wright. 

BOB: All right, Kathryn, I think you had a question based on your experiences going overseas and particularly in Africa related to people who claim they’ve seen demons being cast out. 

KATHRYN: Yeah, part of what I do for GES is missions work and Ken Yates and I have done quite a few trips overseas over the last few years, many to Africa. In fact, I’m going in just a couple of weeks back to Uganda. And so what you find in these areas is very common teaching within the churches that there’s demon possession and sign gifts are still present. This is what’s argued, it’s what’s seen. 

In fact, the group that I’m going with to Uganda, we’ve been dealing with special needs kids in an orphanage. And it’s pretty much the general view that children who are born with special needs are the product of demonic activity. They were cursed. Their parents were cursed in some way. So they view these children as demonic. And that’s why they’re so often cast out and found in the streets or unfortunately have passed away in some pretty, pretty horrific situations. 

So we obviously teach against that, you know, that children are not demon possessed or the product of demonic activity in that way. And we are cessationists. So we believe that the sign gifts have ceased. Unfortunately, that causes a lot of push back. And one of the arguments that we hear and I’d just like to hear your response to it is that, well, Americans don’t see demonic activity in the same way because it’s worse overseas. Demons are more active in these countries. And so that’s why they’re more prominent.

In fact, I’ve even had some friends, Americans, who have gone over who were cessationists, but then went overseas and they have seen these things and based off of their experiences, they’ll come back and say, yes, the demonic activity in these regions is way worse and more prominent. And so how would we respond to that argument, that the reason we don’t see it is because demonic activity just isn’t as bad here. 

BOB: I appreciate the question, Kathryn. I think the main thing we need to grasp is that we understand Scripture from studying the Scriptures. We don’t understand the Scriptures by looking at experience. And in other words, I’ve had lots of people say, I know speaking in tongues is for today because I speak in tongues. I’ve had this experience and you can’t tell me there’s no such thing as speaking in tongues because I do it. 

Well, what we should do is go to the Scriptures and say, what do the Scriptures say? And if we find out the Scriptures say that the sign gifts have ceased, well, then we should say, whatever experience I’m having that I think is speaking in tongues is just gibberish and I’ll renounce it. And I’ve known people like that who came to believe that what they were doing was unbiblical and they stopped doing it, even though they could do it again. 

I don’t know if you’re aware, Kathryn, but there are people in cults that speak in tongues like The Way International. I think you have Catholics in South America who go into trance states and speak in tongues and things. I think you can pretty much get people speaking in tongues in just about any cult. And so the fact that somebody speaks in tongues doesn’t prove they’re born again. And it certainly doesn’t prove that tongues is a gift for today. In fact, studies of tongue speakers show that what they’re doing is just repeating certain syllables over and over again. And a linguist can look at it and say, that’s not actually a language. 

But let’s think about the idea of casting out demons. Again, it’s an argument from experience, not Scripture. In other words, they say, I’ve seen it. I’ve had people say, well, look, I’ve been around voodoo and I’ve seen demonic activity and I’ve seen demons cast out. I’ve been around Santeria and I’ve seen demonic activity and I’ve seen demons cast out. Well, guess what? You don’t have to go to the Caribbean or to Africa to find voodoo or Santeria. It’s practiced in the United States. They claim they cast out all kinds of demons. And they not only have traditional demons, but they have demons of smoking, demons of drinking. And so you can go to a healing service and they can cast out various specific demons. 

My argument would be from Scripture, not from experience. If what I find in Scripture is that the sign gifts have ceased and if I find in Scripture, the demons aren’t free to roam today, then whatever we see that looks like that, is something that’s psychological or something that’s physical. Like epilepsy, for example, looks a bit like what we see in the New Testament. Remember the man who says my son throws himself into the fire and he has fits and things. 

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BOB: It used to be in the United States, I think, a lot of people interpreted epilepsy as demonic activity, but let’s talk about the Scriptures for a minute. Is there evidence in the New Testament the sign gifts have ceased? I think there is. 

For example, Paul says, “I left Trophimus sick at Miletus” (2 Tim 4:20). Why would he leave Trophimus sick anywhere? If Trophimus was one of his fellow workers, Paul was an apostle. He had the ability to heal people. He even raised the dead. Why didn’t he heal Trophimus? Well, because the sign gifts were falling away. Another thing concerning demonic activity, and my friend Bill Fiess has written on this, there’s not a single place in the Epistles that tells us how to cast out demons. Yes, in the Gospels and Acts we see demons, but the most reasonable understanding of the Scriptures is this. There’s no demonic possession mentioned in the Old Testament. It appears nobody was possessed by a demon until the ministry of Jesus. 

I believe the reason God did this was kind of like, you know, he put a diamond on dark velvet so that the diamond shines. Well, Jesus and the apostles shined when they were able to be seen against the backdrop of demons. I don’t think demons are fallen angels. I think demons are the offspring of fallen angels and women from Genesis 6. As a result, they’re kind of like hermit crabs. They need bodies to possess, but I think they were held in Hades until the ministry of Jesus, then they’re released for three and a half years of his ministry. Plus, I’m not sure how long during the ministry of apostles and then they’re now back in Hades and they’re not free to roam. They’re not free to possess anybody today. I think they will be released again in the Tribulation. There are some evidences of that in the book of Revelation, but the evidence is strong—the demons are not free today. 

KATHRYN: It reminds me of a couple of things. There’s this passage in Isaiah 8 where it talks about the nation of Israel resorting to wizards and sorcerers and then the prophet says, but they don’t seek their God. I want to say it was Constable who had a comment about it, which was that when you forsake the truth, it inevitably leads people to be more superstitious. I think that’s accurate. And I see that not just in maybe the more charismatic world, but I’ve spent some time in Italy and Spain where Catholicism is, what you see so often there is very superstitious behavior when they are no longer looking to the Word of God, to the truth, for objective truth. I think that’s really the issue. Is it subjective experience that we look to or are we going to the objective Word of God to find out the truth? 

BOB: Yeah, exactly. There’s also a financial incentive for pastors of churches to promote this kind of thing because it draws crowds. 

KATHRYN: Yes, absolutely.

BOB: It gets people to give money. 

KATHRYN: Yes, both for the local pastors when you’re talking about these areas in Zambia and Thailand or wherever, where the pastors that can claim to heal, specifically with the idea of if you think you are demon possessed and your sickness is related to that demon possession, well, if I can go to the local pastor and give him maybe a really good tithe that week or whatever, then he’ll pray for me, he’ll lay his hands on me and then potentially I’ll be delivered. So there is definitely a financial push in these areas. 

In fact, I’ve been told by many of our students overseas when we start talking about the sign gifts and how they are no longer applicable. You know, speaking in tongues being for unbelieving Jews, for example. You start teaching that and they see it, they see it in the Scriptures that that’s true, but then they’ll tell me we can’t teach this in our churches because if we teach this in our churches, no one will come to our church anymore. 

So people are people are looking for the signs and they’re not looking for the Scriptures.

BOB: By the way, if you’re going to look for a crowd, then you’re going to put your finger in the air and find out which way the wind’s blowing and if people like the idea of demonic activity, you’ll be teaching that. If they like the idea of the sign gifts, you’ll be teaching that. If they like contemplative spirituality, you’ll be teaching that. If they like universalism, you’ll be teaching that. Whatever it is, if you can get a crowd and you’re really not concerned about pleasing God, you’re really not concerned about the Scriptures, you can be someone that’s a charlatan, an Elmer Gantry. 

But on the other hand, some of these people really do think that they’re seeing demons, they’re seeing demons cast out. 

KATHRYN: Absolutely.

BOB: And, like what you’re doing when you go overseas is— search the scriptures. See if these things are so, Act 17:11. I read a book called the [unintelligible] Charismatic Reality and the pastor stopped having people in his church speak in tongues because he saw in the New Testament that people can’t speak in tongues in the worship service unless people interpret. He couldn’t get anybody in the church to interpret, and he quit doing it because he realized he was just making stuff up. And so he forbid speaking in tongues in his church. 

That’s a wise approach. I had a friend who was high up at a Charismatic College, and he was being trained to become one of their big leaders. They were teaching him how to interpret tongues. And he was like, what do you mean? You can teach this? And they said, oh yeah, what you do is don’t worry about how long they speak. If they give a one minute tongues message, your interpretation may be 10 seconds. If they give a 10 second tongues message, your interpretation may be a minute. What you’re supposed to do is open your mind up and whatever Scripture comes to mind, then just say something about that Scripture. Either quote the Scripture or interpret the Scripture. My friend said, I couldn’t do that. 

KATHRYN: Yeah. That doesn’t make any sense. Why not just read the scripture in the first place.

BOB: Yeah. So Kathryn, what are we going to do? We’re going to keep grace in focus. 

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On our next episode, what is conversion? And does it relate to entering the kingdom? Please join us for that and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.